SQ mode?

[Steve Phillipps]

When overcranking would you get best results from the "Slow/Quick" mode or just by setting eg 720/60P in the Video menu? As I understand it the SQ mode is fixed 25 mb/s while the 720/60P will be 35mb/s so better presumably. Only downside is you can't view undercranked effect in camera except by using the SQ mode.
Steve

[Craig Seeman]

Generally much better to overcrank than shoot at p60. Overcrank records at MUCH HIGHER data rate (rate depends on how much over your base rate of 24/25/30).

For example 24/60 (overcrank) will play back slow mo at 35mbps VBR in your base frame rate. Shooting at p60 is already at 35mbps VBR so slowing that done gives you less data per frame. Don't forget you have to "conform" that p60 to whatever your base frame rate will be in post too.

In other words, overcrank is actually recording x/60 at something like 70-87.5mbps VBR. That's one reason why SxS cards are more expensive than others because they need to sustain that record rate plus headroom.

You also seem to be confusing terminology. In HQ mode you can shoot S&Q (Slow and Quick - under and overcrank). SP mode is 25mbps CBR (HDV compatible) which has nothing to do with the above and certainly can NOT be used with S&Q and can NOT shoot 60p (shoots 60i - 29.97fps NTSC). There is no "SQ" mode.

[Steve Phillipps]

OK Craig, sounds interesting - must confess I'm not that used to dealing with these little toy cameras!
Makes sense to me to use the NTSC settings even though I'm in the UK PAL area, as 60fps and 30fps are more useful to me than 25fps (except for sync of course), any reason why I wouldn't want to do that, they'll drop into any timeline OK presumably (ie mixing with 25P HDCam etc.).
Steve

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Apart from editing (which is viable), the only reason against using "NTSC" modes in a PAL land, is potential interference from some types of lighting devices working at 50 Hz.

[Craig Seeman]

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

OK Craig, sounds interesting - must confess I'm not that used to dealing with these little toy cameras!

To paraphrase an expression used regarding something else. "It ain't the size, it's the motion."

What big toy do you normally shoot "overcrank" with? There are a few but how to handles has much to do with how the codec as well as hardware (camera) works rather than size of the camera.

As you know there are 1000fps cameras one can rent and there's the new Casio F1 toy that shoots 1200fps at a really tiny frame size.

It's ALL toys to me. Just a wide range of quality and price.

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

Makes sense to me to use the NTSC settings even though I'm in the UK PAL area, as 60fps and 30fps are more useful to me than 25fps (except for sync of course), any reason why I wouldn't want to do that, they'll drop into any timeline OK presumably (ie mixing with 25P HDCam etc.).
Steve

You could shoot 24/60 and then speed change 24 to 25fps. It seems to me that shooting NTSC framerate for PAL delivery would be "awkward" to say the least.

[Steve Phillipps]

My normal toys are Varicam, HPX2100 and HDW750, plus film of course! Funny you mention 1000fps as my current favourite toy is the Phantom HD, done a lot with that lately and it's terrific!
In what way would NTSC be awkward? I'm not an editor so don't know much about the workflow, but I assumed that once shot in 60fps it's just a file with 720 resolution and 60 frames for every second shot?
Cheers,
Steve

[Craig Seeman]

Steve, knowing the gear and approach does help me in understanding your question.

That's why I mention codec and hardware makes a difference regarding approach.

With EX (XDCAM) 720p24/60 is providing more data per second to SxS card then shooting 720p60.

DVCProHD P2 might handle this differently since 24pN may be a lower data rate then 30p or 60p. That's why you get different storage on P2 for different frame rates. Not so with XDCAM. I'm not quite sure how Varicam to tape is handling the data but even that is headed towards a P2 variant.

EX is tied to a base rate so the playback rate is tied to 35mbps VBR at that base rate. That would mean 720p24/60 would give you best quality.

For those following along, on the EX, the playback data rate is the same whether 720p24, 720p60, 1080p30, etc. This would mean that 720p24 gives you the most data over the smallest frame area. Of course there's the issue of frame vs temporal resolution too.

_____
I wouldn't want to give someone the post production headache of having to convert NTSC to PAL. That's why I mention 24p. Much easier to do a slight speed change from 24p to 25p. For EX it would be simplest to shoot 25p/60 though. You'd have your slo mo in the correct time base at best data rate playback

[Steve Phillipps]

Thanks Craig,
I still don't see why you'd need to convert it though - I thought HD more or less did away with the PAL/NTSC thing, and especially when dealing with solid state I thought you just had 60 frames or whatever of images and if you dropped them into a 24, 25 or 30 fps timeline you'd just get slomo relative to those speeds?
Steve

[Craig Seeman]

There was hope that that would be the case. Sadly no.
In NTSC (here in USA) broadcast is 720p60(59.94 progressive frames) and 1080i60 (59.94 interlaced fields aka 29.97).

Throw in 720p24 or 1080p24 for Blu-ray too.

PAL standards for PAL countries . . .

The whole thing has become MUCH MORE COMPLEX. UGH!

It's good that Sony put nearly everything in the EX series but then you get into the issues as to what's the "best" frame size/frame rate to shoot at and the answer is it depends on content as well as delivery. Each frame size/frame rate has its advantages, uses, disadvantages . . . and each requires a different analysis and solutions for the post production workflow depending on budget, time and quality expectations.

I guess the one "standard" is that HD whether 720 or 1080 regardless of interlace, progressive, NTSC or PAL frame rates, are all square pixels.

But that does lead to the whole SD HD upconversion downconversion issues too. Like I said, MORE COMPLEX.

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

Thanks Craig,
I still don't see why you'd need to convert it though - I thought HD more or less did away with the PAL/NTSC thing, and especially when dealing with solid state I thought you just had 60 frames or whatever of images and if you dropped them into a 24, 25 or 30 fps timeline you'd just get slomo relative to those speeds?
Steve

[Craig Seeman]

Addendum, what you say is true in part.

You do need to conform those frame rates to a timeline rate though. It's not as simple as dropping in the source though. On the Mac you could conform those 60fps to a timeline rate with CinemaTools for example.

Keep in mind that some of what happens regarding quality does depend on codec and hardware though.

On EX1 720p24/60 is recording at much higher data rate (87.5mbps) compared to 720p60 (35mbps). That's because the TARGET PLAYBACK RATE is 35mbps VBR.

Also EX1 is long GOP so with CinemaTools on Mac one would have to convert to 8 or 10 bit uncompressed or Apple Pro Res to have all I frames to conform frame rate.

DVCProHD P2 works differently. Since it's a constant bit rate per frame, fewer frames is lower data rate per second. Very easy to verify since you'll find P2 card stores longer duration at 720p24n compared to 720p60 for example.

Originally Posted by Steve Phillipps

Thanks Craig,
I still don't see why you'd need to convert it though - I thought HD more or less did away with the PAL/NTSC thing, and especially when dealing with solid state I thought you just had 60 frames or whatever of images and if you dropped them into a 24, 25 or 30 fps timeline you'd just get slomo relative to those speeds?
Steve