How good looks 35 Mbps codec when shooting leaves in wind? at DVinfo.net

Michael Mann · May 10th, 2008, 01:19 PM

Leaves in wind is one of the motives where the HDV-codec looks very disappointing to me (reduced overall sharpness, significant blocking). How does the 35 Mbps codec of the EX1 handle such a motive? A short demo clip would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance.

Sina Basy · May 10th, 2008, 04:22 PM

I'm so eager to know as well, from my first shot with the HDV i was really
disappointed looking at those beautiful leaves on the distance to look mushy!
it's more so as you get wider.

Steve Phillipps · May 13th, 2008, 05:37 AM

This should be the sort of situation which the Flash XDR box will help, giving 100m/bs and 4:2:2
Steve

Michael Mann · May 13th, 2008, 05:43 AM

Yes, I guess so. Any demo clips so far in 35 Mbps?

Nils G. Refstrup · May 13th, 2008, 05:47 AM

I don't have any footage online. But I have shot flying dust, waves, trickling water streams, fields of grass and trees blowing in the wind without any visible artifacts. I haven't seen any compression errors caused by motion, of any kind. That may change down the road, but I believe it is very solid.

XDCAM HD is not HDV and it doesn't share any of its flaws.

Sean Donnelly · May 13th, 2008, 06:29 AM

Take a look through the sample clips section. I've lost track of it but someone posted a clip of the fountains at the Bellagio. That should answer your questions.

-Sean

Dennis Schmitz · May 13th, 2008, 06:34 AM

Here is an example extra for you (ok, it's not windy here :)).
Do you see any artifacts? I don't

Picture quality is just incredible.
Take a look by yourself. (plays fine with VLC):
http://rapidshare.com/files/11458468...45_01.MP4.html

I've used:
Cine1 Gamma (looks flat but works great for grading)
Color Matrix: OFF (much less CAs)
Detail: OFF (more film-like)

Dennis

Michael Mann · May 13th, 2008, 08:42 AM

Dennis, thanks for the clip.
It is pretty close to a motive I shot with HDV and, yes, the definition of the leaves is much better and I hardly see artifacts, only around edges (leaves vs. sky) when magnified.
Quite convincing considering it is "only" 10 Mbps more than HDV.

Ulli Grunow · May 13th, 2008, 02:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Mann

Yes, I guess so. Any demo clips so far in 35 Mbps?

Hi Micheal,
it took me very long to find out, how to encode en upload my file I made for you..:-)
Unfortunately I found out, even in H264 you need really high bitrates (up to 10Mbit) to get a real clean image. I shot some really difficult scenery with lots of detail and movement... it was sunny whether with a constant breeze today in Belgium...
I try to upload it to Vimeo - at least at half HD resolution you can watch it... (arround 3 min)

Do you know, where to post a file in real 1080p25 resolution ?
could send it to you for reference...

At least the conclusion is: The EX1 is the best you get for this money
I used to shoot with a FX1 - forget HDV... these shots with leaves in the wind are impossible with HDV...

Ulli

P.S.: Will come back with the link to the video, ASAP

Ulli Grunow · May 13th, 2008, 03:00 PM

Just uploading the file to vimeo.com it will take some time...
search for : Leaves in the wind - you should find it...
Unfortunately only 720x405 at the moment (half HD) with 3Mbit H264...

Micheal, as you have seen from the previous file from Dennis, there ARE NO VISIBLE ARTIFACTS...

It may be interesting to you, what it looks like after encoding for the web in H264/3Mbit CBR...

Will try higher resolution later..

regards,

Ulli,

Michael Mann · May 13th, 2008, 03:42 PM

Ulli, many thanks in advance, I look forward to watching your clip ...

Devin Termini · May 13th, 2008, 04:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dennis Schmitz

Here is an example extra for you (ok, it's not windy here :)).
Do you see any artifacts? I don't

Picture quality is just incredible.
Take a look by yourself. (plays fine with VLC):
http://rapidshare.com/files/11458468...45_01.MP4.html

I've used:
Cine1 Gamma (looks flat but works great for grading)
Color Matrix: OFF (much less CAs)
Detail: OFF (more film-like)

Dennis

Dennis, I downloaded the file and I am impressed with the image quality.
Is this file straight out of the camera or is this a lower bit-rate render? Thanks for posting the clip.

Steve Mullen · May 13th, 2008, 05:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Mann

Dennis, thanks for the clip.
It is pretty close to a motive I shot with HDV and, yes, the definition of the leaves is much better and I hardly see artifacts, only around edges (leaves vs. sky) when magnified.
Quite convincing considering it is "only" 10 Mbps more than HDV.

Both HDV and XDCAM are "brand" names for MPEG-2. The idea that these are two different things is not correct.

Equally incorrect is the idea there is an HDV codec and an XDCAM codec. There are many HDV codecs and many XDCAM codecs. Esch generation of firmware running on more powerful hardware implements a "better" ENCODER. So making a claim about HDV is useless. Which camcorder is the correct way of looking at encoding issues.

It's possible the XDCAM EX encoder does "better" encoding than the HDV encoder in the Z7 so it's much more than 10Mbps higher data rate. But it's just as likely they use the same chip with the same firmware. In this case, the comments about problems with HDV really are comments about camcorders that don't use the lastest chips.

You also need to factor in VBR verses CBR. HDV is CBR. XDCAM is VBR. This may be the difference and not the 10Mbps. Or, more likely these two features work together. But, these advantages are not unique to XDCAM EX. My JVC camcorder shoots VBR at 30Mbps.

And, let's not forget that artifacting was, for very good reasons, never an issue with JVC 720p30.

Bottom-line the vast majority of claims about HDV are out of date. Asking if the EX1 artifacts like HDV is the wrong question.

Tom Roper · May 13th, 2008, 06:27 PM

Steve,
Why is the mp4 wrapper on EX1 files not recognizable as mpeg2? I have various mpeg2 editors (other than the Sony Clip Browser) that work with almost every flavor of mpeg2 including broadcast streams, transport streams, m2t, m2ts and yet mp4 is like a foreign language to them.

Steve Mullen · May 13th, 2008, 10:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Steve,
Why is the mp4 wrapper on EX1 files not recognizable as mpeg2? I have various mpeg2 editors (other than the Sony Clip Browser) that work with almost every flavor of mpeg2 including broadcast streams, transport streams, m2t, m2ts and yet mp4 is like a foreign language to them.

I have long wondered why Sony decided to put an MPEG-2 Elementary Stream along with PCM streams and wrap them in an MPEG-4 wrapper.

Not only does it make no sense it -- as you have found -- doesn't work with MPEG-2 utilities.

Could it be that Sony plans to switch to AVC in a few years and so they are getting ready for this? Or, since Premiere reads mp4 containing MPEG-2, is it that our utilities are simply not universal enough?

As a side -- JVC continues to use .m2t because it is "ready for broadcast" 20mbps ATSC.

May 10th, 2008, 01:19 PM	#1
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	How good looks 35 Mbps codec when shooting leaves in wind? Leaves in wind is one of the motives where the HDV-codec looks very disappointing to me (reduced overall sharpness, significant blocking). How does the 35 Mbps codec of the EX1 handle such a motive? A short demo clip would be much appreciated. Thanks in advance. __________________ Michael

May 13th, 2008, 05:43 AM	#4
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Yes, I guess so. Any demo clips so far in 35 Mbps? __________________ Michael

May 13th, 2008, 08:42 AM	#8
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Dennis, thanks for the clip. It is pretty close to a motive I shot with HDV and, yes, the definition of the leaves is much better and I hardly see artifacts, only around edges (leaves vs. sky) when magnified. Quite convincing considering it is "only" 10 Mbps more than HDV. __________________ Michael

May 13th, 2008, 03:00 PM	#10
Ulli Grunow Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Lauwe Belgium Posts: 39	leaves in the wind... Just uploading the file to vimeo.com it will take some time... search for : Leaves in the wind - you should find it... Unfortunately only 720x405 at the moment (half HD) with 3Mbit H264... Micheal, as you have seen from the previous file from Dennis, there ARE NO VISIBLE ARTIFACTS... It may be interesting to you, what it looks like after encoding for the web in H264/3Mbit CBR... Will try higher resolution later.. regards, Ulli,

May 13th, 2008, 03:42 PM	#11
Michael Mann Major Player Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Kelkheim, Germany Posts: 375	Ulli, many thanks in advance, I look forward to watching your clip ... __________________ Michael

May 10th, 2008, 04:22 PM	#2
Sina Basy Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: San Diego, Ca Posts: 37	I'm so eager to know as well, from my first shot with the HDV i was really disappointed looking at those beautiful leaves on the distance to look mushy! it's more so as you get wider.

May 13th, 2008, 05:37 AM	#3
Steve Phillipps Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Wales Posts: 2,130	This should be the sort of situation which the Flash XDR box will help, giving 100m/bs and 4:2:2 Steve

May 13th, 2008, 05:47 AM	#5
Nils G. Refstrup New Boot Join Date: Apr 2008 Location: Denmark Posts: 15	I don't have any footage online. But I have shot flying dust, waves, trickling water streams, fields of grass and trees blowing in the wind without any visible artifacts. I haven't seen any compression errors caused by motion, of any kind. That may change down the road, but I believe it is very solid. XDCAM HD is not HDV and it doesn't share any of its flaws.

May 13th, 2008, 06:29 AM	#6
Sean Donnelly Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2008 Location: New York, NY Posts: 188	Take a look through the sample clips section. I've lost track of it but someone posted a clip of the fountains at the Bellagio. That should answer your questions. -Sean

May 13th, 2008, 06:34 AM	#7
Dennis Schmitz Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Viersen, Germany Posts: 120	Here is an example extra for you (ok, it's not windy here :)). Do you see any artifacts? I don't Picture quality is just incredible. Take a look by yourself. (plays fine with VLC): http://rapidshare.com/files/11458468...45_01.MP4.html I've used: Cine1 Gamma (looks flat but works great for grading) Color Matrix: OFF (much less CAs) Detail: OFF (more film-like) Dennis

May 13th, 2008, 06:27 PM	#14
Tom Roper Trustee Join Date: Jun 2004 Location: Denver, Colorado Posts: 1,891	Steve, Why is the mp4 wrapper on EX1 files not recognizable as mpeg2? I have various mpeg2 editors (other than the Sony Clip Browser) that work with almost every flavor of mpeg2 including broadcast streams, transport streams, m2t, m2ts and yet mp4 is like a foreign language to them.