HD-SDI Output 4:2:2 or 4:2:0?

[Sean Donnelly]

YES!

It is true 4:2:2 10 bit HD-SDI in whatever format you're shooting. If the camera is in a 1080 mode, it outputs 1080 over SDI. No compression, just the in camera image processing (white balance, gamma, etc.) are applied. Below is a quote from Sony's Juan Martinez.

-Sean

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Juan Martinez, Senior Manager Technology, Sony, posted the following in another forum regarding the EX1, color space and keying. I thought it was so important given the 4:2:2 vs 4:2:0 arguments I've seen, I'm posting it here. Juan, if you're looking in I'm sure you won't mind it. It's important to get this info out there.

"Actually, the Ex1 outputs honest to goodness 10-bit 4:2:2 at all resolutions via its built-in HDSDI/ SDI interface."

"Now, a word about "color space". In the old SD days, 4:4:4, 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 had absolute meaning and direct correlation to the picture quality (luminance and color resolution). In the case of HD, 4:4:4, 4:2:2 and 4:2:0 are relative. Thus, these ratios have no "real" meaning anymore. Therefore, it would be possible for an HD format with small luminance and color spatial resolution to claim 4:2:2... so, the only way to compare is to count the actual captured pixel resolution. Once, you know the exact number of luminance pixels stored, you can apply the ratio to compare apples to apples (for a given aspect ratio)."

"For compositing, all that is necessary is for color sampling to be tight enough for the keyer to effectively detect the edges. You will find that Ex captures 960 color pixels in the horizontal direction capturing a higher color resolution than some HD formats. The color sampling is also halved in the vertical to 540, which is still suitable for good keying. Lastly, at the core of modern compositing engines are sophisticated keying algorithms that even look at luminance transitions to more accurately detect the edges. Please try keying with Ex 4:2:0. I believe you will be surprised how good keys you will be able to achieve."

"Sorry for the long winded reply. I hope it helps."

"Juan Martinez
Senior Manger Technology
Sony Electronics"

[Dennis Joseph]

Is it true that you can't output in 24p when recording via HD-SDI??

[Eric Pascarelli]

At present it's 24p embedded in 60i with pulldown.

In my conversations with Sony reps at NAB they indicated that there would be real 24p with a firmware update in August.

[Greg Boston]

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

At present it's 24p embedded in 60i with pulldown.

In my conversations with Sony reps at NAB they indicated that there would be real 24p with a firmware update in August.

That's correct. The EX-3 will have 24p over HDSDI when it ships, and the EX-1 will get it via a firmware update.

-gb-

[Dennis Joseph]

So it will record and output in 24p after the firmware?

Has anyone been using any HD-SDI recorders? I have looked at a few but they all seem extremely expenive.

Any advice on some that are on the market that are not too ridiclous? If you guys can post some good HD-SDI recorders I would appreciate that.

Thanks,

-Dennis

[George Kroonder]

Double edit post.

[George Kroonder]

After the update it should. However 24p embedded in a 60i sream is not a problem as most capture software can do the pulldown automatically, capturing clean 24p.

[crap lost my message, retype]

HS SDI field recorders can be quite expensive, but the Convergent Design Flash XDR is close to release at ~$5k (ex flash cards). The Cineform recorder is even less expensive (half?) but uses HDMI, so needs an adapter/converter to take the HD SDI. A bit more 'upscale' is the colorspaceinc.com Icon which uses drive packs and starts at about ~10k I believe.

I believe most solutions currently use either a PC/Mac with something like an AJA or Blackmagic card to ingest the HD SDI directly.

There is also the AJA Io HD device to capture full raster 10-bit HD SDI using a Macbook Pro in ProRes 422 only. And Matrox is releasing the MXO2 this summer to add codec agnostic ingest/capture with bells on it (including HD SDI) to Macbook Pro's.

George/

[Dennis Joseph]

Originally Posted by George Kroonder

After the update it should. However 24p embedded in a 60i sream is not a problem as most capture software can do the pulldown automatically, capturing clean 24p.

[crap lost my message, retype]

HS SDI field recorders can be quite expensive, but the Convergent Design Flash XDR is close to release at ~$5k (ex flash cards). The Cineform recorder is even less expensive (half?) but uses HDMI, so needs an adapter/converter to take the HD SDI. A bit more 'upscale' is the colorspaceinc.com Icon which uses drive packs and starts at about ~10k I believe.

I believe most solutions currently use either a PC/Mac with something like an AJA or Blackmagic card to ingest the HD SDI directly.

There is also the AJA Io HD device to capture full raster 10-bit HD SDI using a Macbook Pro in ProRes 422 only. And Matrox is releasing the MXO2 this summer to add codec agnostic ingest/capture with bells on it (including HD SDI) to Macbook Pro's.

George/

I am looking forward to checking out the FLASH XDR. At 5k it does not seem to be too ridiculous although still expensive. Hopefully the prices start going down in the future as the demand goes up.

[Arild Pedersen]

How can an ext recorder detect when to start recording connected to the HD-SDI plug?

[Sean Donnelly]

I'm not sure if any of them do, but SDI includes TC, so if you're in rec run mode it would be able to detect start/stop.

[Alex Gutterson]

Originally Posted by Greg Boston

Like most cameras that record in 4:2:0 with an HDSDI output, the camera will give true 4:2:2 output only when the signal is taken live from the camera head. After recording, what comes out is 4:2:0 upsampled or wrapped in 4:2:2 in order to comply with HDSDI specs.

In live mode, it's confirmed that the EX1 outputs a true 10 bit HDSDI signal.

-gb-

To the author of this thread -- I think that this post is sufficient.

[Dean Gough]

Just watched an interview with Bob Ott, vice president of Sony Professional. He was promoting the new EX3. One issue during the interview which surprised me was that the SDI out is hobbled with 4:2:0 output and not 422 as one would expect. This interview is available at FreshDV from their NAB series.

Why why why do that??? Totally lame if you ask me. The good old Canon H1 does 422.

Originally Posted by Jerry Matese

Still looking for a clear answer here.
Does the EX output true 4:2:2 1080P from the HDSDI port?

[Steven Thomas]

Originally Posted by Dean Gough

Just watched an interview with Bob Ott, vice president of Sony Professional. He was promoting the new EX3. One issue during the interview which surprised me was that the SDI out is hobbled with 4:2:0 output and not 422 as one would expect. This interview is available at FreshDV from their NAB series.

Why why why do that??? Totally lame if you ask me. The good old Canon H1 does 422.

Hmm.
This I have to hear... I actually find it hard to believe. Since the bulk of the internal camera head and processing is the same as the EX1, why would they change it...

[Dean Gough]

Had the same thought myself, why change or is it really 422 out on the EX1?, don't own one so can't comment. I would be surprised if the VP got it wrong though.

http://www.freshdv.com/

Its on the home page in the featured video section.

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Hmm.
This I have to hear... I actually find it hard to believe. Since the bulk of the internal camera head and processing is the same as the EX1, why would they change it...

[Steven Thomas]

Hmm.
Makes me wonder if they disabled 4:2:2 for the EX3 for marketing reasons?
I still find that VERY odd...


The EX1 was already confirmed. It was even verified that it's 10 bit via SDI.
Barlow Elton sent raw EX1 files to Cineform a while back and was told it was 4:2:2 full 10 bit.