Red problem !

[Pierre Legault]

Originally Posted by Leonard Levy

Thanks Ryan,
That settles it all clearly for me , Sorry I was dense before.
I appreciate your hanging in there.

Sounds like something we should all have for the Ex-1

Lenny

Just finish reading the 15 pages of thread......

So I understand that I as a owner of a EX1 should buy a filter to correct a SONY problem ????

Is any one ever got a response from sony ???

Here in Canada it seems that no representant from Sony (3 stores i visited ) is aware of that IR contamination problem......

Is there something we can do TOGETHER ???

[Robert St-Onge]

Originally Posted by Pierre Legault

Just finish reading the 15 pages of thread......

So I understand that I as a owner of a EX1 should buy a filter to correct a SONY problem ????

Is any one ever got a response from sony ???

Here in Canada it seems that no representant from Sony (3 stores i visited ) is aware of that IR contamination problem......

Is there something we can do TOGETHER ???

Pierre, I filed an official complaint to Sony Canada on May 23rd about this problem and few other problems as well. Got an e-mail the next day saying that they are looking into it. They didn't seem to be aware of the problem, my dealer called me and asked me to do some tests...I decided to bring my camera to their office and test it side by side with their demo using a black SONY bag I had. Both cameras had the same problem. Sony wanted me to do more testing but hey, enough is enough. One of their sale's manager called me and said that Sony Japan are looking into it and that it could take a while and I should wait till July. So here we are, the only thing that I am waiting for is the EX3, I told my dealer that once it will be out, I will want to see if the infrared problem has been fixed. Meanwhile, I did get a 486 filter for my Letus adapter because some of my work invloves people in black uniforms.....and I couldn't wait for Sony. So I should keep you posted on that matter and yes we should do something about it because it is unacceptable, especially when shooting in an everyday situation.

[Ryan Avery]

Originally Posted by Pierre Legault

Just finish reading the 15 pages of thread......

So I understand that I as a owner of a EX1 should buy a filter to correct a SONY problem ????

Is any one ever got a response from sony ???

Here in Canada it seems that no representant from Sony (3 stores i visited ) is aware of that IR contamination problem......

Is there something we can do TOGETHER ???

I am not a Sony spokesperson, nor do I profess any of the following to be official statements about Sony products, BUT in Sony's defense here is why most camera manufacturers have the IR blocking filter the way that they do.

The IR blocking filters in front of most sensors are designed to block IR light at a given nanometer rating (usually around 780nm). The problem is that there is a direct relationship between the cutting ability of the IR filter and the angle of view you can acheive with the lens without getting the green cast. Sony has obviously made a decision and found as "happy" of a medium as possible between IR cutting ability for most shooters and the very wide angle nature existing in the very high quality Fujinon lens fixed to the EX1. If the IR cutting ability were increased at the filter on the sensor, then the green cast would show up at wide angle on the stock lens. This is unacceptable for Sony and its high quality repuatation. Most shooters don't run into this problem under normal shooting conditions. All manufacturers must find a balance of what the average shooter will use the camera for and not all unusual circumstances. Sometimes they guess wrong or it isn't possible to do both. In this situation I think that Sony has made the tough choice to pick what most users will do and can't possibly do both. The problem becomes very apparent when shooting black reflective materials or certain lighting (especially stage lighting in concerts) that has higher IR light transmission levels. Again this is my optical knowledge and only a qualified Sony rep could comment on the exact nature of the Sony sensor.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Ryan Avery

Ask a direct question; get a direct response.

Thanks Ryan. Regarding the IR 750, does it diminish light gathering or have an adverse effect if it was left on all the time in lieu of a clear/haze lens protective filter? Can you point me to a link where it can be purchased?

[Pierre Legault]

Thanks Ryan,
for this interesting point of view,

I find particularly funny that people who bought this filter are leaving it on "all the time" without getting the green cast you mentionned.............

So Maybe the choice of Sony's filter for the IR cutting wasn't the perfect one....

So when you mention that " Most shooters don't run into this problem under normal shooting conditions." I could reply that most shooters will encounter this problem eventually..sooner or later (a Wedding, a graduation, or a reunion)......And they will think that THEY did something wrong or didn't adjust the white ballance.
The fact is that SONY do not tell us what you just mentionned......they tell us that there is no problem with the EX1 !

[Leonard Levy]

Thanks Ryan , that makes a great deal of sense.

Pierre, the optical issues involved in putting a filter like schneider makes in front of the lens are different from putting one in front of the optical block. It may analogous but its a different situation and probably easier to do.

My guess is that in making the EX-1 - a 1/2" chip camera as physically small as a 1/3" inch chip camera, caused the Sony engineers nightmares making a small lens that would cover a larger chip. That's probably why we have seen so many compromises and problems with the lens and probably why the issues that Ryan mentions is a bigger problem on this camera than on others. Compare the size of an XDCAM lens for a 1/2" chip with an EX-1 lens. Actually its probably a bit of a technical miracle that they pulled it off- just my guess though.

lenny Levy

[Pierre Legault]

Originally Posted by Leonard Levy

Thanks Ryan , that makes a great deal of sense.

Pierre, the optical issues involved in putting a filter like schneider makes in front of the lens are different from putting one in front of the optical block. It may analogous but its a different situation and probably easier to do.
Actually its probably a bit of a technical miracle that they pulled it off- just my guess though.

lenny Levy

From a technical point of view maybe...... but from a user who wants to use his cam indoor as well as outdoor... I wouldn't say it's a miracle especially if you consider the price they are selling it

[Ryan Avery]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Thanks Ryan. Regarding the IR 750, does it diminish light gathering or have an adverse effect if it was left on all the time in lieu of a clear/haze lens protective filter? Can you point me to a link where it can be purchased?

The filter factor is about the same. You will get about 98% visible light transmission with the True-Cut IR 750 and 99.8% with a B+W Clear UV MRC.

Depending on the size, this link may work for you. Otherwise, call B&H or Abel Cine Tech for other sizes and prices.

http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/produc...iolet_UV_.html

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

[Ryan Avery]

Originally Posted by Pierre Legault

Thanks Ryan,
for this interesting point of view,

I find particularly funny that people who bought this filter are leaving it on "all the time" without getting the green cast you mentionned.............

So Maybe the choice of Sony's filter for the IR cutting wasn't the perfect one....

So when you mention that " Most shooters don't run into this problem under normal shooting conditions." I could reply that most shooters will encounter this problem eventually..sooner or later (a Wedding, a graduation, or a reunion)......And they will think that THEY did something wrong or didn't adjust the white ballance.
The fact is that SONY do not tell us what you just mentionned......they tell us that there is no problem with the EX1 !

What I have said in my previous post regarding this is only from an optical viewpoint, not a Sony specific veiwpoint. A spokesperson for Sony will have to make an official comment. We can only correct the issues we experience and wish well to all other shooters. Its kind of like telling Sony to hack off the handle on the EX1 simply because it doesn't fit in 100 people's underwater housings. I suspect this is broader scope issue but we can only deal with it as it comes. Also, I have noticed that Sony likely can't make it both ways so they go with how the masses will use it. With proper feedback to any manufacturer, products change for the better in the future.

Ryan Avery
Schneider Optics

[Piotr Wozniacki]

I think we have been getting a lot of support from Ryan of Schneider; thanks Ryan!

Unfortunately, all this doesn't mean the problem is gone. I tried both versions of the screw-in B+W filters (the 486 and the 489); even though I spent a fortune on them, none is perfect, always producing some kind of side effect, depending on the configuration used (with or without Letus 35mm adapter) - usually the ugly green tint at the extremities.

Having spent so much on those filters, I'm a bit reluctant to invest even more in the True Cut, 4x5.65" version (either from B+W, or from RedrockMicro who also announced introducing their own at 750 nm). Not until somebody does, and reports the results are perfect - we're talking $500 for the filter, plus $$$ for a matte box, rail system, etc. - all required to use it at all (and the cheaper, 4x4" filter versions are reported to cause vignetting with the EX1)!

Since Mr. Juan Martinez of Sony has recently been active in this forum, explaining the nature of some other EX problem (thanks Juan), may I kindly ask about the official Sony's standpoint regarding the IR contamination issue?

Now, I'm aware all cameras do suffer from it to some extent - but within this class, the EX series is certainly the worst.

Mr. Martinez, are we really supposed to spend the fortune (actually, comparable to the EX1 price) to get our blacks black (rather than brown), and dark blues - blue (instead of magenta)?

Please express the Sony's opinion on that. Thanks in advance, and Regards

Piotr Wozniacki

[Brian Cassar]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

I think we have been getting a lot of support from Ryan of Schneider; thanks Ryan!



Mr. Martinez, are we really supposed to spend the fortune (actually, comparable to the EX1 price) to get our blacks black (rather than brown), and dark blues - blue (instead of magenta)?

Please express the Sony's opinion on that. Thanks in advance, and Regards

Piotr Wozniacki

I fully agree with Piotr here. I too have experienced this problem. We are talking here about a Cinealta badged camera for Pete's sake and not a $400 camera that Aunty Mary has bought to film her newly born niece!!

I've just got a quote for the IR 750 and it will cost me €370 to (hopefully) correct a problem which Sony were not able to minimize or eliminate in the first place. I'm not going to buy an add on enhancement accessory but a correctional accessory made by third parties!! The IR contamination is way too much to be acceptable by the intended users of this camera, i.e the professionals. It is not even acceptable to the man in the street.

But obviously Sony will not dare utter anything, like what happened in the case of the vignetting, the back focus issues......and others. If CMOS + HD will result in this IR contamination, then maybe the technology is not good enough as yet to start marketing HD cameras. However I cannot tell my clients that the black dress has turned to brown due to a limitation of present technology. And what am I supposed to do with the camera - throw it away in 1.5 years time when the new generation of CMOS sensors arrive?

[Pierre Legault]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Since Mr. Juan Martinez of Sony has recently been active in this forum,

Now, I'm aware all cameras do suffer from it to some extent - but within this class, the EX series is certainly the worst.

Mr. Martinez, are we really supposed to spend the fortune (actually, comparable to the EX1 price) to get our blacks black (rather than brown), and dark blues - blue (instead of magenta)?

Please express the Sony's opinion on that. Thanks in advance, and Regards

Piotr Wozniacki

I would guess that Mr. Martinez is not verry active here these last few month to get any information about his EX! is he ?

[Tom Roper]

Originally Posted by Brian Cassar

I fully agree with Piotr here. I too have experienced this problem....

And so have I. Last July we did a two camera shoot of an outdoor concert in late afternoon light to twilight. Both cameras are mine, the EX1 and XH-A1. The blacks from the EX1 are brown, the blacks from the XH-A1 are black. You can really see that when the footage is intercut.

[Tom Roper]

Note the color of the loudspeakers, roof, and the shirt on the guy wearing the headband.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Tom Roper

Note the color of the loudspeakers, roof, and the shirt on the guy wearing the headband.

Tom, I dare say the colour differences between the two pictures are much more than one of the 2 cameras having the IR contamination problem; I'm sure you're aware of that :)