sd dvd from ex1 : horrible

[David Hadden]

Originally Posted by David Hadden

Thanks Jon, I'm guessing since no-one posted that I can see in here that is using Vegas it's not been a big problem for them, though they might just not define it the same as others. I'll do just that with some footage that's been posted raw on the net, and ask others to do the same with the same footage ( in a new thread ) so that everyone can see from a common ground.

Dave

I've made the thread (can be seen at link below)
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=116958

[Simon Denny]

Hi David,
I'm using the Sony Z1 and i have just found a good work flow With Vegas.
First thing is make sure all your footage is in focus looking real sharp.
Render to the best setting,upperfield fist, two pass Variable bit rate, max bit rate 8.5meg, Avg bit rate 6meg, Min bit rate 4.2meg

This should produce a HDv to SD mpeg -2 DVD that looks good.

Good luck
Simon

[David Hadden]

Hi Simon, the reason I'm doing this is because it seems that some people are having problems specifically with the EX-1 (or that's what I've gleamed with my brief reading of this thread, not sure if they've mentioned having trouble with HDV or not), but I most certainly appreciate the feedback and suggestions.

Dave

[Adam Forgione]

sorry for the delay i am the original poster.

Here are some raw hdv files straight from the cam. i had to wait for it to load and then control click save as source (on mac):

http://pennylaneprod.com/1.mov
http://pennylaneprod.com/2.mov
http://pennylaneprod.com/3.mov

Here are m2v files already compressed with compressor :

this is what jpivideo (on vu) saw at my studio and agreed it did not look good. we played his a1 footage wihtout changing a thing on my setup and his stuff looked much better:
http://pennylaneprod.com/163_0046_01-mbps8.m2v


this is what mr. ed (on vu) burned and said looked great when he played it on his setup on 37" plasma, on my setup it wasnt good. He came over yesterday and saw it at my studio and agreed it looked bad.
http://pennylaneprod.com/163_0035_01-MPEG.m2v


this is an example showing store signs. the signs look horrible and digitized.
http://pennylaneprod.com/163_0013_01-MPEG-2.m2v


now i will say when i watch all these clips on the link from my computer they look stunning, go figure.

if anyone can burn these and view them on their systems, please let me know what you are using. the 1st 3 files are HDV so you would have to use your system to encode, but maybe the problem is with my system FCP, compressor, and dvdsp.

all footage shot on 60i - i noticed 1080 30p looks great on sd, so im convinced this is an interlace issue

[Steve Sykes]

Originally Posted by Dennis Schmitz

Here is a download of virtualdubmod with some nice plugins included:

http://rapidshare.com/files/99285984...DubMod.7z.html

Unpack.
Open VirtualDubMod.exe
Drag'n'Drop your .m2v, .m2t, .avi (Canopus HQ, Cineform etc... everything is possible!) etc. on it.
Click "File> Load Processing settings"
Select a preset (from the attachement below) which is ok for you.

Save (you can choose a codec in video>compression before)


regards Dennis

I would like to know the best workflow before resizing in VirtualDubMod:

1) Is there a way VirtualDubMod can convert the orginal mxf files, it doesn't recognise them? I have read the HQ mxf files are actually MPEG2 files recorded at 35mb/s at VBR. Is there a way to convert the filename or rewrapped the codec so it is MPEG2?

2) Is it more advantagous to convert the HD footage to uncompressed avi or a lossless codec (I have huffy & Mainconcept's ProDV codec: DV50 - not sure which is best?).

3) Is the quality worse if I export from my NLE to MPEG2 (It only gives me mainconcept's encoder option).

I'm assuming version 2 is best but my previous background has been editing DV. I am new to editing HDV!

Frameserving was also mentioned- is this like transcoding? My understanding of this is an NLE uses the virtualdub plugin as it renders to avi? Is this possible in vegas or premier?

I would like some light shed on this issue - ideally I want a method that doesn't eat into my harddrives but I'm willing to sacrifice this if the quality is noticeable better.

[Paul Newman]

I edit in HD, then simply downconvert the final master edit ( without title tracks "on" ) ie: make a lossless file of the master cut, re-size in Virtualdub, change your project settings to your prefered SD format and drop the new file in - switch title track back on and voila, you have a clean, no twitter master suitable for output to tape or conversion to mpeg with the highest possible title quality - ie, not "resiszed"

I've done this with EX1 footage shot at 1920x1080 50i as well as 1440x1080 50i and it works very well indeed. All viewed on an HD Tube monitor.

Paul

[Adam Forgione]

what is this VIRTUALDUB, does it work for mac? how do i get it, id love to try it

[Steve Sykes]

Originally Posted by Paul Newman

I edit in HD, then simply downconvert the final master edit ( without title tracks "on" ) ie: make a lossless file of the master cut, re-size in Virtualdub,Paul

So Paul by a lossless codec you mean something like, HuffyUV or QT Sheer Codec. The other codecs mentioned on this thread are lossy, i.e. visually lossless as mentioned in this thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...less+rendering I would not be rendering more than 2 or 3 times so I don't think I necessarily need a lossless codec. Does any one how the Sony 10bit YUV compares to Cineform or other lossy codecs. I used to use Mainconcept's DVCPRO 50 Codec when rendering DV. Is this still a good option?

Is creating a HQ uncompressed, lossy or lossless intermediate file is the best / only method to go before Virtualdub resize. Can someone please confirm Virtualdubmod can not convert directly from EX1 raw files. If I didn't want to edit my footage but just convert to SD using Virtualdubmod do I have to render an intermediate avi file first?

Sorry to keep asking, and thanks for your great advice so far.

[Paul Newman]

I actualy use Canopus Lossless, although uncompressed is ideal, but the file sizes become so huge, and to be honest, I can't see the difference in the end result anyway.

Virtualdub doesn't see EX1 raw files, or .mxf, which is why I prefer to edit with .mxf and then downconvert the final edit - all my tests point to a vastly superior final .avi and mpeg file for DVD using Virtualdub to do the resizing, then frame serve to Procoder or tmpeg.

There's some lively and informative banter on the Grass Valley Forum about this topic, related to HDV in general and particularly the EX1.

Paul

[Steve Sykes]

Originally Posted by Paul Newman

I actualy use Canopus Lossless, although uncompressed is ideal, but the file sizes become so huge, and to be honest, I can't see the difference in the end result anyway.

Virtualdub doesn't see EX1 raw files, or .mxf, which is why I prefer to edit with .mxf and then downconvert the final edit - all my tests point to a vastly superior final .avi and mpeg file for DVD using Virtualdub to do the resizing, then frame serve to Procoder or tmpeg.

There's some lively and informative banter on the Grass Valley Forum about this topic, related to HDV in general and particularly the EX1.

Paul

Thanks Paul, I'll have a look at the Grass Valley Forum about frameserving as I am not sure what this is and how to do this. I presume Canopus codec comes with Edius Broadcast and is it available to download or try on its own?

[Paul Newman]

You can sure download here:

http://www.canopus.com/products/EDIU...cast/index.php

for a full 30 day trial which will give you the codecs to play with as well as direct import of EX1 files to the timeline - very fast indeed.

Virtualdub appears to be Windows only.

Paul

[Jacob Nielsen]

No need for intermediate renders. I use Debugmode Frameserver. Frameserve to avi from vegas, open that avi in Frameserver and use whatever resize filter settings you want. Frameserve from Virtualdub and and encode this avi from TMPG encoder. Voila!

[Steve Sykes]

Originally Posted by Jacob Nielsen

No need for intermediate renders. I use Debugmode Frameserver. Frameserve to avi from vegas, open that avi in Frameserver and use whatever resize filter settings you want. Frameserve from Virtualdub and and encode this avi from TMPG encoder. Voila!

Thank you Jacob, that will save me much time and especially hard drive space!

What settings would you recommend selecting in the frameserve settings. RGB24, RGB32 or YUY2? There are many complicated threads on this, epecially the vagas workflow thread: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...s+colour+space

Does it matter what profile I choose in Vegas if frameserve does the rendering? What would be the cameras native colour space so that frameserve doesn't have to convert? If I choose RGB32 will that make a noticeable difference if I have asked Vegas to do colour correction on the timeline? I presume RGB32 produce longer rendering times?

I feel like my workflow is getting much better now. Thanks for all your advice so far.

[Craig Seeman]

I'm shooting 1080p30 and my conclusion isn't far away from yours. On a Mac I've tried various down converts in FCP, Compressor, Episode, playing with numerous settings. I tested all results on both an HDTV and CRT SD monitor.

Not all shots look bad but there is certainly a pattern to the "problem" shots. My own hunch is not that there's a problem with the Sony but rather the opposite. The resolution is extremely high and thin lines are challenging the downconvert software.

There's obviously a solution because we wouldn't see wonderful films on DVD and Red users may well be in a similar situation. I think part of the issue is that many of us EX1 users haven't dealt with this kind of resolution, which actually is higher than most HDV cameras.

[Peter Kraft]

Craig, Adam, and all others on Macs and Windoze,
to downconvert use MPEGStreamClip which does a hell of a job.
Better then FCP and anything else myself and many others have ever used.

Download for free from: www.squared5.com