Quality of EX1' mic-preamp?

Bob Grant · April 21st, 2008, 05:11 AM

Piotr,
you might find my post here:
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....4&postcount=35
rather interesting. Haven't had a chance to check this out on the EX1 yet but what we found happening with the V1 today is interesting.

Piotr Wozniacki · April 21st, 2008, 05:14 AM

Yes Bob - I read this and the similar one on the Vegas SCS forum, and frankly your posts inspired me to update this thread.

Do you see a direct relation between the two problems?

Bob Grant · April 21st, 2008, 06:52 AM

Far, far from certain but clearly Sony on at least one camera have changed the way things work on their mic inputs. Elsewhere in the midst of all the stuff about the EX1's audio performance some mention was made of some mics having grounding issues with the EX1. Now if whatever design was used in the V1 was also used in the EX1 then indeed there's a significant issue.
Does this have anything to do with your LF problem, probably not. However if the EX1 like the V1 has an issue with the mic input ground being connected to the camera's chassis then who knows. I think this deserves further investigation though before we can say if there's any relationship or not.

Mark Pickering · April 29th, 2008, 03:51 PM

Been following these posts regaurding this audio issue and I am having the same. My test is as simple as standing behind the camera with a set of head phones on and simply blowing towards my sennheiser me66k6 mic and I get the same clipping crackle as others have. I tried the same test on my other EX 1 and get the exact same results. Does anyone have any kind of solution for this. Even with my rycote softie on it still does it. Thanks in advance.

Akira Hakuta · April 29th, 2008, 10:13 PM

Mark, how exactly did you find a solution to the problem with the V1? Was it a particular type of XLR cable? I'm not entirely clear on that, and I'd like to know as my EX1 is currently in for repairs for this very problem. Thanks.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark Pickering

Been following these posts regaurding this audio issue and I am having the same. My test is as simple as standing behind the camera with a set of head phones on and simply blowing towards my sennheiser me66k6 mic and I get the same clipping crackle as others have. I tried the same test on my other EX 1 and get the exact same results. Does anyone have any kind of solution for this. Even with my rycote softie on it still does it. Thanks in advance.

Dave Morrison · April 29th, 2008, 10:14 PM

I was testing my new EX1 this week and tried two of my mic combos and had no issues that I could detect. However, I'll repeat the tests in another day or two and post my settings. The two setups I ran were:

1. Sennheiser MKH60 and MKH30 in a Rycote w/o dead cat - 48v phantom power on both mics; recording made for later M/S stereo decoding

2. Sennheiser evolution G2 wireless mics - pair of them running into XLR jacks at Mic Level w/o phantom power

I need to go back and repeat the tests since I didn't make notes as to the input sensitivity levels (menu dB levels), but so far, my results were fine. Also, if the phantom power supply on the EX1 is anemic or barely able to supply 48v, you can run into ALL KINDS of weird sonic anomalies depending on the brand of mic. Some mics are very demanding of the phantom power and some are not. Also, if audio quality is paramount in your project, I'd suggest using an outboard mixer (Sound Devices is my favorite) and send a Line Level signal into those XLR's instead of depending on Sony's mic pre's.

Paul Curtis · April 30th, 2008, 05:01 AM

just something to add to this thread.

my sound guy when recording onto the EX1 could hear something that sounded like a tape mechanism when the camera was running. Very bizzare, we never got to the bottom of it partly because 99% of the time we were recording to a separate recorder and also because i couldn't hear it and if i can't hear it - it's not there :)

But in reality if i strained even i could pick this up. So is there a chance that the rumble is actually internal electronics, perhaps the lens moving?

cheers
paul

Piotr Wozniacki · April 30th, 2008, 05:14 AM

I guess what you're referring to is indeed the lens - specifcally, in those rare recordings with AF on, I can hear very distinct motor noises in the audio (would not describe it as a "rumble" however). Am not sure wheter it's directly picked up by the mic, or internal electronic interference. But frankly, I don't care - it is not a show stopper.

Compare with everything Manual!

Mark Pickering · April 30th, 2008, 07:13 AM

Akira, I have not yet fixed the problem and I'm looking for a solution. Has anyone been able to fix this yet, and if so what was it. Thanks

Akira Hakuta · April 30th, 2008, 08:23 AM

The Sony repair folks have been completely unable to diagnose the problem and have no idea how to fix it. They've had my camera for literally a month now and I've finally heard word that, after my complaints, they're sending me a replacement camera. If this new replacement still has the same audio problems, then Sony has some serious issues.

Craig Seeman · May 23rd, 2008, 06:48 AM

Yesterday I did a shoot using Sony 680S stereo shotgun in Stereo mode. Winds were buffeting us at about 20+miles per hour. I heard the crackle on wind gusts. I changed the mic sensitivity from -41 to about -20 (in both channels) and the crackle stopped.

I think it's a case where the mic preamp is over driven by the wind.

The annoying thing about it is that until the gust hits you have no way to anticipate the issue and if the gust dies you have no idea if you brought down the sensitivity enough until the next gust hits.

I briefly turned on the camera's internal wind filter but I don't like the way that sounds. The mic also has a roll off switch but for the same reason I didn't attempt to use it.

Eric Pascarelli · May 23rd, 2008, 06:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I think it's a case where the mic preamp is over driven by the wind.

The annoying thing about it is that until the gust hits you have no way to anticipate the issue and if the gust dies you have no idea if you brought down the sensitivity enough until the next gust hits.

I agree - the preamp is most likely being overdriven in the low end.

How about blowing into the mic? I am sure with practice you could come up with a test that consistently works to simulate the wind you might encounter.

Dave Morrison · May 23rd, 2008, 07:33 AM

Craig, what kind of wind protection do you have on your shotgun?

Craig Seeman · May 23rd, 2008, 07:42 AM

Just the Sony cover. I suspect if I got a big furry beast (I refuse to call them dead cats) that would help immensely.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Morrison

Craig, what kind of wind protection do you have on your shotgun?

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

How about blowing into the mic? I am sure with practice you could come up with a test that consistently works to simulate the wind you might encounter.

It may be impacted by the force of the wind. I'm not sure how to do 20mph breath vs 10mph breath. To simulate gale force I could sneeze.

Dave Morrison · May 23rd, 2008, 07:49 AM

If that Sony cover is a foam cover, there's your problem. They are almost useless in anything above a whisper of a breeze. The key to making these things work is to create a zone of dead air around the openings and vents of your mic. A Rycote, or similar, is the best, albeit expensive, way to go. Even that plastic basket needs a dead c..., er, rodent to work in the kind of wind you are talking about.

April 21st, 2008, 05:14 AM	#32
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Yes Bob - I read this and the similar one on the Vegas SCS forum, and frankly your posts inspired me to update this thread. Do you see a direct relation between the two problems? __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

April 29th, 2008, 03:51 PM	#34
Mark Pickering New Boot Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 6	Been following these posts regaurding this audio issue and I am having the same. My test is as simple as standing behind the camera with a set of head phones on and simply blowing towards my sennheiser me66k6 mic and I get the same clipping crackle as others have. I tried the same test on my other EX 1 and get the exact same results. Does anyone have any kind of solution for this. Even with my rycote softie on it still does it. Thanks in advance. Last edited by Mark Pickering; April 29th, 2008 at 03:52 PM. Reason: spelling

April 30th, 2008, 05:14 AM	#38
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	I guess what you're referring to is indeed the lens - specifcally, in those rare recordings with AF on, I can hear very distinct motor noises in the audio (would not describe it as a "rumble" however). Am not sure wheter it's directly picked up by the mic, or internal electronic interference. But frankly, I don't care - it is not a show stopper. Compare with everything Manual! __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

May 23rd, 2008, 07:33 AM	#43
Dave Morrison Major Player Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 762	Craig, what kind of wind protection do you have on your shotgun? __________________ EX1, Nikon D750 http://www.morrisonphotographics.com http://www.heritagefilm.com

May 23rd, 2008, 07:49 AM	#45
Dave Morrison Major Player Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 762	If that Sony cover is a foam cover, there's your problem. They are almost useless in anything above a whisper of a breeze. The key to making these things work is to create a zone of dead air around the openings and vents of your mic. A Rycote, or similar, is the best, albeit expensive, way to go. Even that plastic basket needs a dead c..., er, rodent to work in the kind of wind you are talking about. __________________ EX1, Nikon D750 http://www.morrisonphotographics.com http://www.heritagefilm.com

April 21st, 2008, 05:11 AM	#31
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Piotr, you might find my post here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....4&postcount=35 rather interesting. Haven't had a chance to check this out on the EX1 yet but what we found happening with the V1 today is interesting.

April 21st, 2008, 06:52 AM	#33
Bob Grant Trustee Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Sydney Australia Posts: 1,570	Far, far from certain but clearly Sony on at least one camera have changed the way things work on their mic inputs. Elsewhere in the midst of all the stuff about the EX1's audio performance some mention was made of some mics having grounding issues with the EX1. Now if whatever design was used in the V1 was also used in the EX1 then indeed there's a significant issue. Does this have anything to do with your LF problem, probably not. However if the EX1 like the V1 has an issue with the mic input ground being connected to the camera's chassis then who knows. I think this deserves further investigation though before we can say if there's any relationship or not.

April 29th, 2008, 10:14 PM	#36
Dave Morrison Major Player Join Date: May 2002 Location: West Central Florida Posts: 762	I was testing my new EX1 this week and tried two of my mic combos and had no issues that I could detect. However, I'll repeat the tests in another day or two and post my settings. The two setups I ran were: 1. Sennheiser MKH60 and MKH30 in a Rycote w/o dead cat - 48v phantom power on both mics; recording made for later M/S stereo decoding 2. Sennheiser evolution G2 wireless mics - pair of them running into XLR jacks at Mic Level w/o phantom power I need to go back and repeat the tests since I didn't make notes as to the input sensitivity levels (menu dB levels), but so far, my results were fine. Also, if the phantom power supply on the EX1 is anemic or barely able to supply 48v, you can run into ALL KINDS of weird sonic anomalies depending on the brand of mic. Some mics are very demanding of the phantom power and some are not. Also, if audio quality is paramount in your project, I'd suggest using an outboard mixer (Sound Devices is my favorite) and send a Line Level signal into those XLR's instead of depending on Sony's mic pre's.

April 30th, 2008, 05:01 AM	#37
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	just something to add to this thread. my sound guy when recording onto the EX1 could hear something that sounded like a tape mechanism when the camera was running. Very bizzare, we never got to the bottom of it partly because 99% of the time we were recording to a separate recorder and also because i couldn't hear it and if i can't hear it - it's not there :) But in reality if i strained even i could pick this up. So is there a chance that the rumble is actually internal electronics, perhaps the lens moving? cheers paul

April 30th, 2008, 07:13 AM	#39
Mark Pickering New Boot Join Date: Mar 2008 Location: Hartford, CT Posts: 6	Akira, I have not yet fixed the problem and I'm looking for a solution. Has anyone been able to fix this yet, and if so what was it. Thanks

April 30th, 2008, 08:23 AM	#40
Akira Hakuta Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Washington, DC Posts: 44	The Sony repair folks have been completely unable to diagnose the problem and have no idea how to fix it. They've had my camera for literally a month now and I've finally heard word that, after my complaints, they're sending me a replacement camera. If this new replacement still has the same audio problems, then Sony has some serious issues.

May 23rd, 2008, 06:48 AM	#41
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Yesterday I did a shoot using Sony 680S stereo shotgun in Stereo mode. Winds were buffeting us at about 20+miles per hour. I heard the crackle on wind gusts. I changed the mic sensitivity from -41 to about -20 (in both channels) and the crackle stopped. I think it's a case where the mic preamp is over driven by the wind. The annoying thing about it is that until the gust hits you have no way to anticipate the issue and if the gust dies you have no idea if you brought down the sensitivity enough until the next gust hits. I briefly turned on the camera's internal wind filter but I don't like the way that sounds. The mic also has a roll off switch but for the same reason I didn't attempt to use it.