SxS only. No tape back. Issue? at DVinfo.net

Tim Lenz · February 14th, 2008, 10:56 AM

I am looking at getting either the EX1 or the new Z7 as options. I prefer the EX1 1/2" chips and 1920x1080, but do like the Z7's ability to record simultaneously to tape for backup and CF for immediate use is nice. Having experienced CF card issues, my fear with the EX1 is SxS card failures, glitches, etc. on a camera without a secondary recording (tape).

For those that have used this camera, have you experienced issues with the recordings to the SxS cards or have they been consistently reliable? If issues, what have you experienced and have you been able to recover the recording? How many hours of use have you put them through?

Craig Seeman · February 14th, 2008, 11:00 AM

No problems at all with SxS. Even when I accidentally pulled out the USB cable during transfer. It asked me to repair the media and it worked fine.

I back up to DL DVD.

I'm glad to kiss tape goodbye. No drop outs, no shuttling, no worrying about head alignment, no worry about finding someone with a compatible deck if I take the tapes someplace.

DL DVD plus Sony Clip Browser makes for easy portability.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 14th, 2008, 11:06 AM

Good question - compared with the Z7's CF memory, the SxS ExpressCard option as adopted in the EX1 is not only faster (allowing higher bitrate with overscan), but also more reliable - not a single issue reported so far!

Another thing to remember: the Z7's CF recorder has only ONE card slot. Meaning that after the card is full, you have to STOP recording in order to off-load or swap the card (unless continuing with the tape only is OK).

With the EX1's two slots, you can record continuously forever - after filling up card A, the camera switches and seamlessly continues recording to card B, giving you enough time to off-load card A and insert it back.

I have experienced the beauty of double media recording with the V1 (tape plus the DR60 drive); the Z7 will be similar with the difference that while DR60 holds 4.5 hours of HDV, the CF holds less and once filled up, recording must stop.

True - the EX1 doesn't give you the instant backup on tape, but for mission critical you can always switch it to SP (=HDV) and record to both the ExpressCard and the DR60 disk, which - while still not being a shelf-ready archive - does give the redundancy you might need.

Tim Lenz · February 14th, 2008, 11:23 AM

I understand the EX1 can record 100 minutes at 35Mbps using two 16-GB SxS memory cards. How long does it take to transfer one 16 card (approx 50 minutes) to a computer?

Piotr Wozniacki · February 14th, 2008, 11:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Lenz

I understand the EX1 can record 100 minutes at 35Mbps using two 16-GB SxS memory cards. How long does it take to transfer one 16 card (approx 50 minutes) to a computer?

I currently only hav 8 GB cards, and it takes approximately 4 mins per card using ExpressCard slot in my Vaio laptop (considerably longer using the direct camera USB connection).

Tim Lenz · February 14th, 2008, 11:45 AM

I edit with AVID Express PRO HD, however have never attempted an HD edit. I am interested in familiarizing myself with a HD project and was wondering if anyone would be willing to provide me with 30 seconds or so of raw EX1 files.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 14th, 2008, 12:02 PM

There is plenty posted already, just search this forum and this one:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=163

Brian Cassar · February 14th, 2008, 12:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Lenz

I understand the EX1 can record 100 minutes at 35Mbps using two 16-GB SxS memory cards. How long does it take to transfer one 16 card (approx 50 minutes) to a computer?

I use 16 GB cards and to transfer to PC via USB cable, a full 16GB (i.e 50 minutes) takes 14 minutes which roughly works out as a transfer speed of x3.5. If you had to use an express card slot such as that found on laptops, it is even faster.

Benjamin Eckstein · February 14th, 2008, 01:22 PM

I am getting about 6x transfer with a MacBookPro and the express slot. Sure beats tape capturing!

Tim Lenz · February 14th, 2008, 01:45 PM

Piotr, Again, I am new to the HD world so forgive any ignorance. I have seen several posted video clips from the EX1, however there are encoded for the web already (mov files for example). What I am hoping for is a file still raw off the SxS. I am not familiar with what the file type is the EX1 shoots.

Another point:
The more I learn, the more I am leaning toward the EX1, over the Z7U, however I have VX2100s and can use the batteries from those on the Z7 and the CF cards are cheaper.

3 Z7 cameras with 7 CF 16GB cards (near 7 hours recording time) at current deals will cost less than $17,500

3 EX1 cameras with 7 SxS 16GB cards (near 7 hours recording time) at current prices I am finding will cost $26,000 (over $6k for the cards themselves)

Craig Seeman · February 14th, 2008, 02:24 PM

Tim,

2 16GB cards and either MacBookPro or Sony Vaio Laptop gives you "infinite" (limited by drive space) record time. Maybe you're including that since you mention 7 cards for 3 cameras.

Buy one camera and rent 2 others as needed unless you think you'll be using 3 cameras daily.

EX records XDCAM HD in .mp4 wrapper (as opposed to .mxf). It can record in HDV compatible format too.

If you're charging your clients what the gear and your skills are worth the cost of ownership is reasonable. You shouldn't charge DV or HDV prices for XDCAM HD quality.

If time is money (and it IS in this industry) then the ingest speed will save you money compared to tape. Imagine ingesting 6 hours of material in one hour. You've just freed up a day.

Benjamin Eckstein · February 14th, 2008, 02:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Tim,

If time is money (and it IS in this industry) then the ingest speed will save you money compared to tape. Imagine ingesting 6 hours of material in one hour. You've just freed up a day.

You said it. I had to capture 7 hours of tapes the other day that someone else shot and was so annoyed, yet happy that those days are few and far between. That said....capturing is always a great opportunity for me to watch HBO.

Alexander Ibrahim · February 14th, 2008, 07:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Lenz

Another point:
The more I learn, the more I am leaning toward the EX1, over the Z7U, however I have VX2100s and can use the batteries from those on the Z7 and the CF cards are cheaper.

3 Z7 cameras with 7 CF 16GB cards (near 7 hours recording time) at current deals will cost less than $17,500

3 EX1 cameras with 7 SxS 16GB cards (near 7 hours recording time) at current prices I am finding will cost $26,000 (over $6k for the cards themselves)

Comparing CF cards in general to SxS cards is a bit unfair if only from a data transfer viewpoint.

Compare to the 300x CF cards as a starting point.

CF will still come out cheaper- though not by as much.

In any case, with the EX1 you are getting a LOT more camera for the money.

For one, even in the SP 25Mbps mode you get 16 bit 48KHz uncompressed PCM audio. HDV cams like the Z7U deliver compressed audio only, forcing you to two system recording if you want quality sound.

The sound issue has kept me away from HDV cameras.

Have you considered the Panasonic HVX200? Its a good camera, has dual system recording, and uncompressed audio recording in ALL modes. It can write DV to tape and DVCPRO HD to P2 cards simultaneously.

For many users it is a better deal than either the Z7 or the EX1.

I don't know how immediate your needs are but I am thinking about holding off on my planned EX1 purchase until after NAB at this point. All my scheduled projects already have camera packages attached that I am just coming in to use. That or I am just scheduled to do post.

Of course if a job that I need my own equipment for shows up first...

Tim Lenz · February 14th, 2008, 09:51 PM

Alexander,

I love my Panasonic DVX100a and definitely would consider the HVX200. Are you aware of how the 200 compares to the EX1 in low light? I also have to think the EX1 with 1/2" chips will produce better results that the 200 with 1/3" chips. Low light is an issue for me since I do shoot some weddings and reception halls are not always kept lit. I do like the take and P2 dual recording of the Panasonic.

Alexander Ibrahim · February 15th, 2008, 01:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Tim Lenz

Alexander,

I love my Panasonic DVX100a and definitely would consider the HVX200. Are you aware of how the 200 compares to the EX1 in low light? I also have to think the EX1 with 1/2" chips will produce better results that the 200 with 1/3" chips. Low light is an issue for me since I do shoot some weddings and reception halls are not always kept lit. I do like the take and P2 dual recording of the Panasonic.

The EX1 is a better low light performer than the HVX200, no doubt in my mind.

The HVX can make a nice picture in low light- but when you do you notice a lot of noise in the blacks.

That comparison is in the low gain modes of the cameras. Both can of course use gain to make a good exposure in most circumstances.

The difference is in the noise levels. The EX1 can use a lot more gain with acceptable noise levels than the HVX.

Still in either case I recommend lighting.

February 14th, 2008, 10:56 AM	#1
Tim Lenz New Boot Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Appleton WI Posts: 21	SxS only. No tape back. Issue? I am looking at getting either the EX1 or the new Z7 as options. I prefer the EX1 1/2" chips and 1920x1080, but do like the Z7's ability to record simultaneously to tape for backup and CF for immediate use is nice. Having experienced CF card issues, my fear with the EX1 is SxS card failures, glitches, etc. on a camera without a secondary recording (tape). For those that have used this camera, have you experienced issues with the recordings to the SxS cards or have they been consistently reliable? If issues, what have you experienced and have you been able to recover the recording? How many hours of use have you put them through?

February 14th, 2008, 11:06 AM	#3
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Good question - compared with the Z7's CF memory, the SxS ExpressCard option as adopted in the EX1 is not only faster (allowing higher bitrate with overscan), but also more reliable - not a single issue reported so far! Another thing to remember: the Z7's CF recorder has only ONE card slot. Meaning that after the card is full, you have to STOP recording in order to off-load or swap the card (unless continuing with the tape only is OK). With the EX1's two slots, you can record continuously forever - after filling up card A, the camera switches and seamlessly continues recording to card B, giving you enough time to off-load card A and insert it back. I have experienced the beauty of double media recording with the V1 (tape plus the DR60 drive); the Z7 will be similar with the difference that while DR60 holds 4.5 hours of HDV, the CF holds less and once filled up, recording must stop. True - the EX1 doesn't give you the instant backup on tape, but for mission critical you can always switch it to SP (=HDV) and record to both the ExpressCard and the DR60 disk, which - while still not being a shelf-ready archive - does give the redundancy you might need. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; February 14th, 2008 at 12:04 PM.

February 14th, 2008, 12:02 PM	#7
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	There is plenty posted already, just search this forum and this one: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/forumdisplay.php?f=163 __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 14th, 2008, 11:00 AM	#2
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	No problems at all with SxS. Even when I accidentally pulled out the USB cable during transfer. It asked me to repair the media and it worked fine. I back up to DL DVD. I'm glad to kiss tape goodbye. No drop outs, no shuttling, no worrying about head alignment, no worry about finding someone with a compatible deck if I take the tapes someplace. DL DVD plus Sony Clip Browser makes for easy portability.

February 14th, 2008, 11:23 AM	#4
Tim Lenz New Boot Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Appleton WI Posts: 21	I understand the EX1 can record 100 minutes at 35Mbps using two 16-GB SxS memory cards. How long does it take to transfer one 16 card (approx 50 minutes) to a computer?

February 14th, 2008, 11:45 AM	#6
Tim Lenz New Boot Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Appleton WI Posts: 21	I edit with AVID Express PRO HD, however have never attempted an HD edit. I am interested in familiarizing myself with a HD project and was wondering if anyone would be willing to provide me with 30 seconds or so of raw EX1 files.

February 14th, 2008, 01:22 PM	#9
Benjamin Eckstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 380 Images: 1	I am getting about 6x transfer with a MacBookPro and the express slot. Sure beats tape capturing!

February 14th, 2008, 01:45 PM	#10
Tim Lenz New Boot Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Appleton WI Posts: 21	Piotr, Again, I am new to the HD world so forgive any ignorance. I have seen several posted video clips from the EX1, however there are encoded for the web already (mov files for example). What I am hoping for is a file still raw off the SxS. I am not familiar with what the file type is the EX1 shoots. Another point: The more I learn, the more I am leaning toward the EX1, over the Z7U, however I have VX2100s and can use the batteries from those on the Z7 and the CF cards are cheaper. 3 Z7 cameras with 7 CF 16GB cards (near 7 hours recording time) at current deals will cost less than $17,500 3 EX1 cameras with 7 SxS 16GB cards (near 7 hours recording time) at current prices I am finding will cost $26,000 (over $6k for the cards themselves)

February 14th, 2008, 02:24 PM	#11
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Tim, 2 16GB cards and either MacBookPro or Sony Vaio Laptop gives you "infinite" (limited by drive space) record time. Maybe you're including that since you mention 7 cards for 3 cameras. Buy one camera and rent 2 others as needed unless you think you'll be using 3 cameras daily. EX records XDCAM HD in .mp4 wrapper (as opposed to .mxf). It can record in HDV compatible format too. If you're charging your clients what the gear and your skills are worth the cost of ownership is reasonable. You shouldn't charge DV or HDV prices for XDCAM HD quality. If time is money (and it IS in this industry) then the ingest speed will save you money compared to tape. Imagine ingesting 6 hours of material in one hour. You've just freed up a day.

February 14th, 2008, 09:51 PM	#14
Tim Lenz New Boot Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: Appleton WI Posts: 21	Alexander, I love my Panasonic DVX100a and definitely would consider the HVX200. Are you aware of how the 200 compares to the EX1 in low light? I also have to think the EX1 with 1/2" chips will produce better results that the 200 with 1/3" chips. Low light is an issue for me since I do shoot some weddings and reception halls are not always kept lit. I do like the take and P2 dual recording of the Panasonic.