1080p 24fps - Overcranking and timelapse Questions at DVinfo.net

Jamie Baughman · February 8th, 2008, 11:54 AM

Hi folks,

I'm going to be shooting a short for a small town's chamber of commerce this weekend and I'd like to get a couple takes on the best way to shoot a time lapse as well as overcranking for slo mo.

Shot 1 in question is a timelapse shot. This town is called Los Gatos and there's a big stone cat that I'd like to shoot against the sky for the credits. Stone cat on the right side of the frame, left and middle area of the frame filled with blue sky and clouds rolling by. So this would be my timelapse shot.

Shot 2 would be some overcranked stuff on the main pedestrian area of the downtown area.

Basically just looking for "best practices" from folks who've set up similar shots.

Thanks in advance.

Paul Joy · February 8th, 2008, 12:30 PM

For the time lapse you've got two options, you can either undercrank (S&Q Motion) to a suitable frame rate (down to 1 fps) or you can use the frame record function and have it take images at a certain rate.

For the cloud time lapse shots I did http://www.vimeo.com/480384 I under cranked to 5/25 fps. Be careful if you go slower though, I have experienced banding in the images at lower framerates.

For slowmo just overcrank, be careful to match the local AC frequency if there's lights on, so for instance O/C up to 60 in a 60hz location and you should be fine. This was done at 50/25 http://www.vimeo.com/480479 (UK is 50hz).

To over crank you'll need to shoot in 720p, just remember that when your deciding what to shoot the rest of your footage in. You'll either have to upscale the 720 to 1080 or downscale the 1080. I just shot everything at 720.

Setting shutter to 180 degrees or off should result in good footage, off will result in more motion blur but be brighter.

Do some tests firsts though!

Paul.

Jamie Baughman · February 8th, 2008, 12:42 PM

Paul,

I'm still getting acquainted with the menu, so sorry for the question if it's something obvious, but why wouldn't I be able to overcrank at 1080p?

Thanks very much for your notes, extremely helpful and your shots on Vimeo are lovely.

Eric Pascarelli · February 8th, 2008, 12:46 PM

The EX1 only lets you shoot up to 29.97 fps at 1080.

59.94 at 720.

Paul Joy · February 8th, 2008, 12:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jamie Baughman

Why wouldn't I be able to overcrank at 1080p?

No probs Jamie.

You can to a point, the camera can only capture at a frame rate of up to 30fps in 1080p. That isn't really enough for decent slow motion, but the lower res of 720p allow you to crank up to 60.

There has been lot of discussion about why the camera can't do 1080p/60, I guess it's just a hardware limitation.

Jamie Baughman · February 8th, 2008, 12:50 PM

Thanks guy.

Very helpful.

EDIT:: Have either of you experimented with upscaled 720p to 1080p? Just wandering a) what the results looked like (i.e., good/bad) and b) how you did the upscaling.

Thanks again.

Phil Bloom · February 9th, 2008, 05:02 PM

looks great. I mix 720p overcrank with 1080p stuff all the time

Sebastien Thomas · February 10th, 2008, 12:43 PM

Mixing 720p and 1080p fromp the EX1 in FCP looks great. You just have to set your sequence in either 720 or 1080, depending on the result you want.
Then add your footage, it will be automaticaly converted. no other work to do :)

Mike Barber · February 10th, 2008, 01:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Sebastien Thomas

Mixing 720p and 1080p fromp the EX1 in FCP looks great. You just have to set your sequence in either 720 or 1080, depending on the result you want.
Then add your footage, it will be automaticaly converted. no other work to do :)

It's really that simple? No need to go through something like Compressor? I've been wondering about the up-rezing workflow as well. Are there any artifacts or other issues?

When you say it looks great, is this just on the monitor, TV or have you seen the result on a large screen (projected)?

Phil Bloom · February 10th, 2008, 01:59 PM

using final cut 6 it really is that simple. Mixed timelines. You can have dv, hdv, xdcam, dvcprohd, pro res and uncompressed 10 bit all in the same timeline and it will play no probs!

Mike Barber · February 10th, 2008, 02:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Bloom

using final cut 6 it really is that simple. Mixed timelines. You can have dv, hdv, xdcam, dvcprohd, pro res and uncompressed 10 bit all in the same timeline and it will play no probs!

That's great! Phil, have you had a chance to see your work with the EX1 projected on a large screen? I am curious to know if you can tell what is native 1080 and what was up-rezed from 720 in a 1080 project on the "big screen".

Phil Bloom · February 10th, 2008, 02:05 PM

yeah last week. It all looked pretty good and hard to tell to be honest. It's been graded well to match anyway.

Mike Barber · February 10th, 2008, 02:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Phil Bloom

yeah last week. It all looked pretty good and hard to tell to be honest. It's been graded well to match anyway.

So someone who wasn't familiar with what was what to begin with wouldn't ever know (unless they were told)? If that's the case, it sounds like having to shoot one's overcranked footage in 720p isn't a big deal in practice at all.

Phil Bloom · February 10th, 2008, 02:13 PM

no not really. ideally it would still be 1080 as there is some loss of resolution, but it's not hugely noticeable.

Michael H. Stevens · February 10th, 2008, 02:28 PM

If the lost resolution can be noticed would it give a better result to not mix the time-line but up res the clip first? Or does that introduce its own problems?

February 8th, 2008, 11:54 AM	#1
Jamie Baughman Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 180	1080p 24fps - Overcranking and timelapse Questions Hi folks, I'm going to be shooting a short for a small town's chamber of commerce this weekend and I'd like to get a couple takes on the best way to shoot a time lapse as well as overcranking for slo mo. Shot 1 in question is a timelapse shot. This town is called Los Gatos and there's a big stone cat that I'd like to shoot against the sky for the credits. Stone cat on the right side of the frame, left and middle area of the frame filled with blue sky and clouds rolling by. So this would be my timelapse shot. Shot 2 would be some overcranked stuff on the main pedestrian area of the downtown area. Basically just looking for "best practices" from folks who've set up similar shots. Thanks in advance. __________________ Jamie Baughman

February 8th, 2008, 12:30 PM	#2
Paul Joy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 627	For the time lapse you've got two options, you can either undercrank (S&Q Motion) to a suitable frame rate (down to 1 fps) or you can use the frame record function and have it take images at a certain rate. For the cloud time lapse shots I did http://www.vimeo.com/480384 I under cranked to 5/25 fps. Be careful if you go slower though, I have experienced banding in the images at lower framerates. For slowmo just overcrank, be careful to match the local AC frequency if there's lights on, so for instance O/C up to 60 in a 60hz location and you should be fine. This was done at 50/25 http://www.vimeo.com/480479 (UK is 50hz). To over crank you'll need to shoot in 720p, just remember that when your deciding what to shoot the rest of your footage in. You'll either have to upscale the 720 to 1080 or downscale the 1080. I just shot everything at 720. Setting shutter to 180 degrees or off should result in good footage, off will result in more motion blur but be brighter. Do some tests firsts though! Paul. __________________ Blog: www.pauljoy.com Company: www.videotrader.co.uk

February 8th, 2008, 12:42 PM	#3
Jamie Baughman Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 180	Paul, I'm still getting acquainted with the menu, so sorry for the question if it's something obvious, but why wouldn't I be able to overcrank at 1080p? Thanks very much for your notes, extremely helpful and your shots on Vimeo are lovely. __________________ Jamie Baughman

February 8th, 2008, 12:50 PM	#6
Jamie Baughman Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: San Francisco, CA Posts: 180	Thanks guy. Very helpful. EDIT:: Have either of you experimented with upscaled 720p to 1080p? Just wandering a) what the results looked like (i.e., good/bad) and b) how you did the upscaling. Thanks again. __________________ Jamie Baughman

February 9th, 2008, 05:02 PM	#7
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	looks great. I mix 720p overcrank with 1080p stuff all the time __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

February 8th, 2008, 12:46 PM	#4
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	The EX1 only lets you shoot up to 29.97 fps at 1080. 59.94 at 720.

February 10th, 2008, 12:43 PM	#8
Sebastien Thomas Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Paris, France Posts: 210	Mixing 720p and 1080p fromp the EX1 in FCP looks great. You just have to set your sequence in either 720 or 1080, depending on the result you want. Then add your footage, it will be automaticaly converted. no other work to do :)

February 10th, 2008, 01:59 PM	#10
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	using final cut 6 it really is that simple. Mixed timelines. You can have dv, hdv, xdcam, dvcprohd, pro res and uncompressed 10 bit all in the same timeline and it will play no probs! __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

February 10th, 2008, 02:05 PM	#12
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	yeah last week. It all looked pretty good and hard to tell to be honest. It's been graded well to match anyway. __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

February 10th, 2008, 02:13 PM	#14
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	no not really. ideally it would still be 1080 as there is some loss of resolution, but it's not hugely noticeable. __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

February 10th, 2008, 02:28 PM	#15
Michael H. Stevens Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Palm Desert, California Posts: 311	If the lost resolution can be noticed would it give a better result to not mix the time-line but up res the clip first? Or does that introduce its own problems?