abrupt highlights clipping

Steven Thomas · February 8th, 2008, 10:49 AM

Piotr,
I guess you would of been relieved a lot sooner. Maybe you skipped over the Adam Walt's reference earlier on in this thread? :)

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?...6&postcount=64

Well, of course this helped when you found out that backing off on the saturation was the fix.

It makes me wonder if Sony could offer a parameter to roll the saturation off on the top end where highlights start to get clipped.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 8th, 2008, 10:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Piotr,
I guess you would of been relieved a lot sooner. Maybe you skipped over the Adam Walt's reference earlier on in this thread? :)

http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?...6&postcount=64

Well, of course this helped when you found out that backing off on the saturation was the fix.

It makes me wonder if Sony could offer a parameter to roll the saturation off on the top end where highlights start to get clipped.

Yes, I must have skipped that post of yours - thanks as well. Regarding your point on a parameter to tune the highs saturation - well, it's there, but only for STD curves. I'm going to play with it, of course. However, I'd like to use the cine gammas for outside shots anyway (look how flat my last grabs look with standard gamma), and those do not offer ANY knee region adjustment at all - a pity.

Benjamin Eckstein · February 8th, 2008, 11:08 AM

Piotr,
I have to say after looking at all these pictures......I like the design of your fence. Seriously.

Mark David Williams · February 8th, 2008, 01:22 PM

Piotr. I got a nice red Halo from a part overexposed image I was testing. I don't know if this is any use.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 8th, 2008, 01:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Benjamin Eckstein

Piotr,
I have to say after looking at all these pictures......I like the design of your fence. Seriously.

I am now in such a good mood after making sure the camera is OK that I believe you, Benjamin :)

Piotr Wozniacki · February 8th, 2008, 01:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Mark David Williams

Piotr. I got a nice red Halo from a part overexposed image I was testing. I don't know if this is any use.

Mark, I don't think this is the same problem we've been discussed here; it looks to me more like the light spilling through the guys hair... But can't be sure.

Leonard Levy · February 8th, 2008, 01:48 PM

I'm glad you guys got it fdigured out before I got a chance to test, now what will I do with my day.
One thing I did notice though is that even in the auto knee the knee sat control is operational so you might want to try the look again with the hi sat matrix but pulling down your knee saturation. that may give you the best of both worlds. Knees sat is always dangerous when overdone and it just may be that the combination with Hi sat matrix makes it worse.

Playing with these settings has alerted me to one striking flaw with the EX though that I hope could be fixed in an upgrade. Maybe I am just mmissing it though.

Is there a way to show at one time what the PP color, white, knee and gamma settings are on a single screen. The status button doesn't include it and that's the one screen that you really would want to check constantly, especially as its really easy to hit the wrong button when saving stuff.
This sucks big time to me. the worst thing I've found on the camera.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 8th, 2008, 03:24 PM

Leonard,

Unfortunately, with any Cine gamma, the Knee submenu (including the point, slope AND saturation) is NOT functional (dimmed out). You can adjust all of these for any STD curve, though.

Your point about a single status screen with all currently engaged PP's settings is excellent - should go high onto the firmware update list! There are 5 pages to browse in Status, but only the name of the current PP is displayed on one of them.

As it's your idea, please put it in the relevant thread - who knows, hopefully Sony IS reading :)

Alexander Ibrahim · February 8th, 2008, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

PS.PS. A note to Leonard Levy: thanks Leonard for consistently supporting my opinion on the effect unacceptability throughout the whole thread!

Hey I think we all agree it was unacceptable- just disagreed on why.

Glad its sorting out for you.

By the way- what was it you found objectionable about the ND switch on the camera?

Mark David Williams · February 8th, 2008, 03:29 PM

Well the guy (Me) is quite a way into the shade. Sunlight is hitting the wall behind so you have an area (Me) That is underexposed and an area behind that is over exposed. The fringing around the hair shouldnt happen because Im not near the sunlight. The sunlight is behind and the halo is not through the hair its around it. Also following the brickwork too. It cant be light spill because this was an area of shade but also the halo follows the brickwork in the overexposed part.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 8th, 2008, 03:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Alexander Ibrahim

Hey I think we all agree it was unacceptable- just disagreed on why.

Glad its sorting out for you.

By the way- what was it you found objectionable about the ND switch on the camera?

Alexander, the ND filter switch can adopt a position in between two stops, which results in what I posted here (see next posts also, explaining how and when it happened):

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=461

Alexander Ibrahim · February 8th, 2008, 04:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Alexander, the ND filter lever can adopt a position in between two setting, which results in what I posted here (see next posts also, explaining how and when it can happen):

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....&postcount=461

Wow, I haven't had that happen to me.

Is there a way to purposefully recreate it? If you know how to recreate it, can you use that knowledge to make it never happens by accident?

Piotr Wozniacki · February 8th, 2008, 04:53 PM

The "opening iris effect" during filter switching I have noticed on several frames, but (perhaps pure coincidence) in SP 24PsF ONLY. The filter not having snapped properly (and thus creating the upper right vignetting effect) happened to me just once; yes I managed to recreate it intentionally - but frankly, cannot see a way to guarantee avoiding another incident like this. What the switch lacks is a proper lever/knob on it, so that it could be grabbed by and actually turned firmly, precisely and quickly between its stops; with the current construction the switch is actually slid instead of turned by the lever, which cannot be precise (just like all the other slider switches - the camera/power off/media, for one).

I'm thinking of having a knob machined nicely, and glued into the slit in the switch to create a proper lever mechanism, like those on the V1 and most other cameras I ever used. What do you think?

Looking at the pictures of the new HDV camera (Z7), I can see quite a different solution is used; no lever or slider, but a turning knob. This cannot possibly control a traditional filter, which makes me wonder if Sony adopted an all new ND filter (software?) It also has 3 and not just 2 settings (plus the "off" position, of course). And is probably ddead silent in operation - I hate the click of tranditional ND switches, getting recorded by the microphone!

As a side note, I also wonder why the CineAlta division hasn't adopted another new solution coming with the prosumer Z7 - the XtraFine VF. The one on the EX1 comes from the previous generation of cameras, and - especially when compared to the splendid LCD - is pathetic.

Hardware-wise, I personally find the ND switch and the VF to be probably the weakest points of this otherwise wonderful machine.

Leonard Levy · February 8th, 2008, 05:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Leonard,

Unfortunately, with any Cine gamma, the Knee submenu (including the point, slope AND saturation) is NOT functional (dimmed out). You can adjust all of these for any STD curve, though.

Piotr,
Actually I was not refering to cine gamma which you are right about , but to the standard gammas - when auto knee is engaged you still have control over knee saturation which is exactly where your problem was occuring as I recall ( std gamma /auto knee?)

I hope Sony is listening but unfortunately i doubt it.

Alexander Ibrahim · February 8th, 2008, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

I'm thinking of having a knob machined nicely, and glued into the slit in the switch to create a proper lever mechanism, like those on the V1 and most other cameras I ever used. What do you think?

Well if its causing you that much trouble then it sounds like a good idea. With caveats.

I would suggest using the least amount of "extension" that makes it work for you. We can't know if too much torque might harm the camera in some way.

Also have you considered tapping a screw hole in there and then using a machined metal screw... like on matte boxes? The advantage is that you could remove it more easily when you sell the camera or the like.

Also- check with Sony support. I am sure they'll tell you that it will void the warranty, but if they are in a good mood they may limit that voiding to the ND switch mechanism.

February 8th, 2008, 01:22 PM	#139
Mark David Williams Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hertfordshire UK Posts: 414	Piotr. I got a nice red Halo from a part overexposed image I was testing. I don't know if this is any use. Attached Thumbnails

February 8th, 2008, 03:24 PM	#143
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Leonard, Unfortunately, with any Cine gamma, the Knee submenu (including the point, slope AND saturation) is NOT functional (dimmed out). You can adjust all of these for any STD curve, though. Your point about a single status screen with all currently engaged PP's settings is excellent - should go high onto the firmware update list! There are 5 pages to browse in Status, but only the name of the current PP is displayed on one of them. As it's your idea, please put it in the relevant thread - who knows, hopefully Sony IS reading :) __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 8th, 2008, 04:53 PM	#148
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	The "opening iris effect" during filter switching I have noticed on several frames, but (perhaps pure coincidence) in SP 24PsF ONLY. The filter not having snapped properly (and thus creating the upper right vignetting effect) happened to me just once; yes I managed to recreate it intentionally - but frankly, cannot see a way to guarantee avoiding another incident like this. What the switch lacks is a proper lever/knob on it, so that it could be grabbed by and actually turned firmly, precisely and quickly between its stops; with the current construction the switch is actually slid instead of turned by the lever, which cannot be precise (just like all the other slider switches - the camera/power off/media, for one). I'm thinking of having a knob machined nicely, and glued into the slit in the switch to create a proper lever mechanism, like those on the V1 and most other cameras I ever used. What do you think? Looking at the pictures of the new HDV camera (Z7), I can see quite a different solution is used; no lever or slider, but a turning knob. This cannot possibly control a traditional filter, which makes me wonder if Sony adopted an all new ND filter (software?) It also has 3 and not just 2 settings (plus the "off" position, of course). And is probably ddead silent in operation - I hate the click of tranditional ND switches, getting recorded by the microphone! As a side note, I also wonder why the CineAlta division hasn't adopted another new solution coming with the prosumer Z7 - the XtraFine VF. The one on the EX1 comes from the previous generation of cameras, and - especially when compared to the splendid LCD - is pathetic. Hardware-wise, I personally find the ND switch and the VF to be probably the weakest points of this otherwise wonderful machine. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 8th, 2008, 10:49 AM	#136
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Piotr, I guess you would of been relieved a lot sooner. Maybe you skipped over the Adam Walt's reference earlier on in this thread? :) http://dvinfo.net/conf/showpost.php?...6&postcount=64 Well, of course this helped when you found out that backing off on the saturation was the fix. It makes me wonder if Sony could offer a parameter to roll the saturation off on the top end where highlights start to get clipped.

February 8th, 2008, 11:08 AM	#138
Benjamin Eckstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 380 Images: 1	Piotr, I have to say after looking at all these pictures......I like the design of your fence. Seriously.

February 8th, 2008, 01:48 PM	#142
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	I'm glad you guys got it fdigured out before I got a chance to test, now what will I do with my day. One thing I did notice though is that even in the auto knee the knee sat control is operational so you might want to try the look again with the hi sat matrix but pulling down your knee saturation. that may give you the best of both worlds. Knees sat is always dangerous when overdone and it just may be that the combination with Hi sat matrix makes it worse. Playing with these settings has alerted me to one striking flaw with the EX though that I hope could be fixed in an upgrade. Maybe I am just mmissing it though. Is there a way to show at one time what the PP color, white, knee and gamma settings are on a single screen. The status button doesn't include it and that's the one screen that you really would want to check constantly, especially as its really easy to hit the wrong button when saving stuff. This sucks big time to me. the worst thing I've found on the camera.

February 8th, 2008, 03:29 PM	#145
Mark David Williams Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hertfordshire UK Posts: 414	Well the guy (Me) is quite a way into the shade. Sunlight is hitting the wall behind so you have an area (Me) That is underexposed and an area behind that is over exposed. The fringing around the hair shouldnt happen because Im not near the sunlight. The sunlight is behind and the halo is not through the hair its around it. Also following the brickwork too. It cant be light spill because this was an area of shade but also the halo follows the brickwork in the overexposed part.