sony ex vs hvx200

[Daniel Alexander]

Maybe I've missed it but i cant seem to find a good comparison between the sony xdcam ex and the panasonic hvx200. I finally have enough money to choose between a range of hdv cameras currently out on the market but it seems the competition is getting so close its hard to get clear results on what route to take. I would be using the camera for short films and documentaries mainly and im striving to get that filmic look.

I would love to hear from anyone who has had experience with both cameras in an attempt to figure out where my money will be best spent. Oh and 1 side note, if its true what i hear about the short recording times on the p2 cards and the fact they arent sold with the camera, then this would be a major factor as i know the p2 cards are like a good half a grand. Thanks

[Steven Thomas]

16GB P2 cards are around the same price as SxS 16GB cards approx $899 USD.

I'm currently hearing that Panasonic is offering a free 16GB card with the HVX200. The Sony offers two 8GB SxS cards (one in the box, one in the mail).

HVX200 using one 16GB card:
16GB = 16 minutes in DVCPRO HD 1080 24P (40 minutes DVCPRO HD 720 24P)

PMW-EX1 using one 16GB card:
16GB = 50 minutes at HighQuality 35mbps 1080P (all resolutions) (70 minutes using 25mbps SP mode)

[Kit Hannah]

EX1 Specifications

http://www.sonybiz.net/biz/view/Show...DCAMCamcorders

HVX-200 Secifications

ftp://ftp.panasonic.com/pub/Panasoni..._AG-HVX200.pdf

[Daniel Alexander]

woah that is a short shooting time on the panasonic. I prefer 720p over 1080p so i guess atleast that works in my favour. Im in the UK and as far as i know you dont get the p2 card with the camera, where as you do get 2 cards with the sony. Hmmm im so confused right now. Also if anyone from the UK knows of any good dealerships to buy any of these cams it would be much appreciated.

[Steven Thomas]

Originally Posted by Daniel Alexander

I prefer 720p over 1080p so i guess atleast that works in my favour.

Hmmm im so confused right now. Also if anyone from the UK knows of any good dealerships to buy any of these cams it would be much appreciated.

You're confused....I'm confused over you perfering 720P over 1080P. LOL
I take you mean due to the ability for overcranking, right?

[Daniel Alexander]

LOL I was under the impression that 720 handled pixels better in camera movement

[Ali Husain]

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

You're confused....I'm confused over you perfering 720P over 1080P. LOL
I take you mean due to the ability for overcranking, right?

when the hvx is shooting hardly more than 500 lines of res, it's not buying you much to put it in a 1080p container. i'd always shoot 720p on the hvx.

[Rob Collins]

If you need to get a camera right now (as I did) I can't imagine a reason for choosing the HVX. It's old, and if you consider that you'll really need an external LCD for it (you don't with EX1), about the same price. Now if you can wait six months to a year, it'll be interesting to see what Panasonic comes out with to replace the HVX.

[Robert Lane]

The EX1 does a few things better than the HVX: It has much better noise and low-light characteristics, it has more logical lens controls, especially when it comes to manual operation since the EX1 has an actual aperture ring and not a control knob, and it has a nice high-res flip-out LCD similar to the Z1 which has always been a favorite in the handheld-cam market.

It's a hit-and-miss with handholding; some reviewers don't like the fact that the EX1 has a tendency to rotate in your hand; when I demo'd the pre-production model I didn't use it handheld so I can't comment on that.

Now here's where the EX1 starts to get a little grey: There's been a handful of posts about the rolling shutter/CMOS sensor combination which is creating image skew and other not-so-nice artifacts during motion sequences or, when shooting full-wide angle. There's also a known issue with some units having serious vignetting - something Sony is addressing directly (see the sticky on the topic).

The real downside to the EX1 is that while it' a serious step-up and away from HDV it's still a long-GOP 4:2:0 colorspace/format which has it's own grudging implications in post, requiring using either ProRes or AIC for Mac and Cineform for either Mac/PC to get away from. I don't know about what PC apps are EX1 compatible yet, but only FCP 6.0.2 is ready for EX1 footage.

This is where the HVX would be a better choice; it's been around longer so it's compatibility with NLE's is far greater; you're in an "i-frame" codec which doesn't have the nasty conforming issues of HDV or XDCAM and there are no image skew issues and better color, 4:2:2. But, the trade-off is more noise, less resolution, about 2 stops less light sensitivity (depending on how you test) and the flip-out LCD is not nearly as nice.

As a shooter I like the EX1 far better, as an editor I stay away from anything long-GOP making the HVX my choice.

There's no such thing as one being better than the other overall, it's really a matter of what's important to you and what your workflow is.

[Craig Seeman]

SxS nearly 10x real time when using Express slot in laptop.
Record times much longer than P2. 16GB holds 50 plus minutes (and transfers in 5 given the above).
1/2 vs 1/3" sensor - greater depth of field.
1920x1080 chips and good true 1080p or 1080i quality/resolution (compared to 960x540 chips of HVX200 and up-sampling to 1080)
HD-SDI out if you want 10 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 from camera head.
Great low light performance.
Lens had very good true manual (non servo) controls.

I like XDCAM work flow - With high speed laptop transfer I can ingest and burn to disc, include Sony's free Clip Browser and deliver that disc with master video to client which they can easily view even if they don't have an NLE.

I can change the MP4 file extension of the clips the EX1 creates, to TS and burn to Blu-ray (NO encoding needed) and the client has a disc they can play on Blu-ray player or PS3, both a lot cheaper than the typical professional deck.

From what I've seen 4:2:0 keys/composites fine especially with progressive source. Sure 4:2:2 would be easier/better but the codecs is only as good as the camera attached to it and I much prefer the EX1 with 4:2:0 to card over the HVX 4:2:2. And with HD-SDI out of the EX1 I can still get 4:2:2 from the head.

Way back when, when I first thought about going tapeless HD I looked at the HVX200 and was extremely disappointed. The EX1 has the feature set I wanted and I'm glad I waited for such a camera to come into existence.

[Daniel Alexander]

Thanks guys, this is exactly the sort of information i was hoping for. I'm not nieve enough to believe any camera is better than another however when their workflows are broken down into real life instances it is much much easier to make educated decisions on which path to take. My inital feeling was to go with the sony, i mean its the newer camera, has practicaly everything i could ask for physically, image is amazing however my biggest gripe is with the 4:2:0 color space. My work will be heavily color corrected in post, and i dont have the money for an SDI card and other components, so this still makes me scratch my head, along with the orkward chain for editing on the PC, which i believe at the moment means i have to purchase cineform and set my project up in vegas to that as if it were xdcam hd. I have £4500 in my hand and i really need to make my mind up soon. Your help has been great, but still trying to battle it out in regards which will work best for me. Actually, on second thoughts, could i really manage with a mere 40minutes on a card that costs £500 hmmmm i need to sleep on this.

[Craig Seeman]

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

Now here's where the EX1 starts to get a little grey: There's been a handful of posts about the rolling shutter/CMOS sensor combination which is creating image skew and other not-so-nice artifacts during motion sequences or, when shooting full-wide angle. There's also a known issue with some units having serious vignetting - something Sony is addressing directly (see the sticky on the topic).

I don't see anyone on any forum I've visited (and that's many) seeing rolling shutter skewing. Adam Wilt was able to induce it only with what appears to be violent shaking.

I haven't seen any skewing on any images I've shot including skaters and a spinning carousel. I've even tried swish pans across trees and haven't seen it. People ASK about rolling shutter but I haven't seen any reports of it beyond the strobe/flash issue I mention below.

The only obvious issue seems to be partial flashes in frames with photographer flashes or other types of strobes. Seems it may be related to speed of strobe vs CMOS scan and is impacted by frame rate at well as shutter speed setting.

Sony is taking care of the vignette issue and the it seems all currently shipping cameras are free of it. The one I got on Dec 20 didn't have it.

Originally Posted by Robert Lane

The real downside to the EX1 is that while it' a serious step-up and away from HDV it's still a long-GOP 4:2:0 colorspace/format which has it's own grudging implications in post, requiring using either ProRes or AIC for Mac and Cineform for either Mac/PC to get away from. I don't know about what PC apps are EX1 compatible yet, but only FCP 6.0.2 is ready for EX1 footage.

I have no problem editing the XDCAM codec in my nearly 3 year old G5 Mac. It works in real time including the various real time fx that my aging Mac can handle.

Granted 4:2:2 can be better than 4:2:0 for keying and color correction but 4:2:0 does work fine. A codec isn't better than the camera attached to it and I'd prefer the EX1 over the HVX200 in all but very very few circumstances.
I can get 10 bit uncompressed 4:2:2 for the HD-SDI of the EX1 if I were shooting in my studio setting for compositing.

NLEs handling the EX1 XDCAM source files: FCP on the Mac and Sony Vegas on Windows from what I understand. Other NLEs will follow VERY QUICKLY. If an NLE is an issue because it doesn't support a camera, I'd change the NLE faster than I'd change the camera. If FCP supports new codecs and new workflows faster than other NLEs then that's something you consider when you purchase your next NLE . . . just as one considers the camera and the codec and workflow it brings with it.

[Daniel Alexander]

Craig it seems like you understand where im coming from, your addressing the issues which are of concern to me. About the colour sampling etc i have a theory...if i can achieve a particular colour look in camera, that will be processed before it is compressed out to an editible file right? so in essence that would mean the in camera color profile would have been processed at 4:4:4 as it is done nativly. If this is true then maybe my need for heavy color manipulation could be overlooked as if i can fine tune my camera i can slightly alter an already good looking image in post. Does any of that make sence?

[Chris Leong]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I have no problem editing the XDCAM codec in my nearly 3 year old G5 Mac. It works in real time including the various real time fx that my aging Mac can handle.

Craig, slightly off topic:

I am ordering my EX1 and preparing my workflow, and can't seem to get it to work properly.

I have a G5 Mac as well, BTW, and so I downloaded the 2.1 file broswer and the OSX driver, and then some .mxf files off an EX1 to test the workflow, and...

nothing.

The Sony browser sees the folder where the .mxf files are but won't open them.

I know the various MXF files are good because VLC media player sees them, but maybe they've already been translated/rewrapped?

Don't quite get it yet...

Still have one last job on 5.1.4 before I can strip down the computer and reconfigure for FCPS2. I know that FCP 5.1.4 won't import the MXFs but I haven't even gotten that far yet.

What am I doing wrong?

G5 dual PPC 2GHz/3GB RAM, OSX.4.10, QT7.2 pro, FCP5.1.4, Sony viewer 2.1, OSX XDCam EX driver.

Thanks!
Cheers
Chris

[Chris Leong]

Daniel -
as far as the rolling shutter issue is concerned, I'd like to direct your attention to the bottom clip on this page:

http://bssc.sel.sony.com/Broadcastan...oGallery.shtml

Should put a lot of your concerns to rest.

If you look into the matter a little further, you'll see that the way the pixels are sampled in the EX1 has been developed to minimze the rolling shutter issue.

I won't personally know or comment about the 4:2:0 colorspace issue until I plug an EX1 into my MacBook pro and check out the feed with Conduit Live, but that program is excellent at pulling keys from much worse camera feeds so I would think that the EX1's 10 bit 4:2:0 space will be fine, especially tethered (i.e. before and during the fact, rather than after it -- off tape or card).

Probably, though, this may mean a fast G5 Quad with RAID and 10bit card, and at least a 24" full HD screen on an Apple cart, to get the best possible quality out of the camera and its keys.

JM2C, YMMV.
Chris