Deleting Clips from SxS via Computer

[Craig Seeman]

It seems you can't delete clips from the SxS card via Sony XDCAM Transfer Software 2.1.

While there looks to be a clip delete function if you look at page 19 footnote in the above manual it says:

a)This command cannot be executed int the following cases.
• When the source is an SxS memory card or a folder with the same file structure as XDCAM EX.

It seems like a circumlocutious way of saying you actually can't delete clips from SxS card via XDCAM Transfer software.

I'd really not have the camera operator doing this especially if they're in the process of an ongoing recording to the other card.

I don't want the camera operator to be distracted from shooting. I don't want the camera operator to mistakenly wipe the wrong card. I'd really want the media wrangler / assistant taking care of this.

Maybe I'm missing something about deleting clips via the computer. Any thoughts on this?

[Peter Kraft]

Craig,

You are on a MacBook Pro, right?

Why not switch from the XDCAM Transfer Software to the Finder?

Why not simply delete the files on the SxS Card via Finder?

Or, alternatively, why not simply reformat the SxS Card via the Finder?

I cannot see any necessity to delete the files through the XDCAM Transfer
software. Or am I missing something?

[Craig Seeman]

Mac G5 but will be getting a MacBookPro shortly. Only difference is that the Intel CPUs can use Clip Browser.

I understand that reformatting from the Mac's Disk Utility is a no, no. Apparently the FAT32 format done in does some other things than a simple FAT32 format.

See Page 31 of the manual.
"Any SxS memory card formatted with a device other than this camcorder cannot be used with the camcorder."
and also
"SxS memory cards to be used with this camcorder must be formatted using the format function of this camcorder."

I'd also rather delete all clips rather than format. Formatting means you'll lose any settings you've stored to the card.

A Delete All Clips or a Delete on Transfer (much like a digital still camera) would be good. Asking an assistant to go into Finder to find the mounted card to delete clips manually is asking for trouble in my opinion.

I'd like the work flow to be a simple, xfer, delete clips, hand back the card.

[Peter Kraft]

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

Apparently the FAT32 format done in does some other things than a simple FAT32 format.

FAT 32 is FAT 32 -- unless some additional folders/infos are added during formatting that do not disturb the overall FAT 32 format. Same as with flash media for digital still cameras.

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

See Page 31 of the manual.
"Any SxS memory card formatted with a device other than this camcorder cannot be used with the camcorder."
and also
"SxS memory cards to be used with this camcorder must be formatted using the format function of this camcorder."

See above.

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I'd also rather delete all clips rather than format. Formatting means you'll lose any settings you've stored to the card.

Good point. Did not know that.

So all-in-all I'd prefer deleting transfered clips via Finder. For me it seems to be the workflow of choice, if your assistant is a smart one.

[Craig Seeman]

Originally Posted by Peter Kraft

FAT 32 is FAT 32 -- unless some additional folders/infos are added during formatting that do not disturb the overall FAT 32 format. Same as with flash media for digital still cameras.

I believe someone, somewhere (this forum?) had tried formating FAT32 from the Mac formating utility and said it did not work. The manual implies that it must be done from the camera too. I suspect there's something else done in formating beyond the FAT32 format.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Yes, the camera must do its own formatting or it won't accept the card. Somebody formatted the DR60 drive to NTFS using his PC in order to fool the camera, and guess what - the moment he conected it to the V1 via firewire, it got re-formatted into FAT32 within a second...

[Peter Kraft]

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

Somebody formatted the DR60 drive to NTFS using his PC in order to fool the camera, and guess what - the moment he conected it to the V1 via firewire, it got re-formatted into FAT32 within a second...

Well, NTFS and FAT 32 are two different beasts.
But to re-instate what I said earlier: I'm pretty sure the camera adds additional info onto the card apart from the plain formatting process.

Can someone please compare the content of a camera formatted SxS Card with one that was formatted by a computer? Should shed some light onto the difference between those two cards.

[Bernard Racelis]

After formatting the card in the camera, the card contains a directory/folder called BPAV, which contains 2 subdirectories and 2 XML files.

G:\BPAV>DIR
Volume in drive G has no label.

Directory of G:\BPAV

12/26/2007 08:37 PM <DIR> .
12/26/2007 08:37 PM <DIR> ..
12/26/2007 08:37 PM <DIR> CLPR
12/26/2007 08:37 PM <DIR> TAKR
12/26/2007 08:37 PM 271 CUEUP.XML
12/26/2007 08:37 PM 422 MEDIAPRO.XML
2 File(s) 693 bytes
4 Dir(s) 8,076,034,048 bytes free


As you record clips, it creates subdirectories within the /BPAV/CLPR subdirectory, one subdirectory per clip:

G:\BPAV>dir CLPR
Volume in drive G has no label.

Directory of G:\BPAV\CLPR

12/26/2007 08:37 PM <DIR> .
12/26/2007 08:37 PM <DIR> ..
12/26/2007 08:40 PM <DIR> 083_0270_01
12/26/2007 08:43 PM <DIR> 083_0271_01
12/26/2007 08:45 PM <DIR> 083_0272_01
...
...


And the 2 XML files mentioned above are updated -- the XML files have references/pointers to the clips/subdirectories which have been saved in the card.

Simply deleting the clips (directories/folders) on the card outside the camera might cause a problem -- the XML files would then have references/pointers to non-existent clips. I guess one thing you can try is to save a copy of the XML files (the ones that are created after you format the card which do not point to any clips) to your PC/Mac. You can then delete the clips on the PC/Mac, and copy the XML files from the PC/Mac to the card.

[Peter Kraft]

Bernard,

thank you for that very enlightening research.
It definitely says two things:
• simply formatting the card outside the camera is feasible but requires the card to be reformatted in the camera
• simply deleting the files outside the camera is also feasible but makes the card practically unsuable unless a complicated process is initiated

So, what is needed is a little application that copies the files from the card onto the laptop, formats the cards afterwards and "conditions" it with the necessary folders and files as described by you.

Makes me wonder if we might get the guy who wrote a similar application for use with P2 cards for the HVX200 to write that for the EX1.

Or is somebody out there fit enough to write an Automator script for the MacBookPro?

[Piotr Wozniacki]

With all the above said, I still remember somebody saying in another thread that yes you can just delete the clips after off-loading them to the PC, and use the card in the EX1 without it breaking continuous recording to check or otherwise prepare the card...

[Peter Kraft]

The more I think about it the more I like the Automator solution.

Copying the files from the SxS Card onto a MacBook Pro is a repeatable structured process (and therefore can be automated)
Deleting all the files an that SxS Card is a structured process as well (and therefore can be automated)
Re-establishing the required folders and files on the SxS Card is also a repeatable and structured process (and therefore can be automated, too)

Any ideas and thoughts?

[Peter Kraft]

Piotr,

you may be right .... or not. Has to be tested.
Unfortunately I don't have an EX1 (or SxS Cards for that matter)
available here.

[Peter Kraft]

Just as a reference:
Look here if you'd like for SxS Cards what Anders Holck
made for the P2 Cards: www.p2genie.com/

[Bernard Racelis]

I deleted the entire BPAV directory on the card.
As soon as I turn the camera on, it recreates the BPAV directory structure and the XML files, and you can start shooting as normal.

The profile settings are stored in a separate "SONY" directory, therefore you don't lose the profile settings if you delete the entire BPAV directory.

H:\SONY\PRO\CAMERA\XDCAM_EX\PMW_EX1>dir
Volume in drive H has no label.

Directory of H:\SONY\PRO\CAMERA\XDCAM_EX\PMW_EX1

12/27/2007 07:03 AM <DIR> .
12/27/2007 07:03 AM <DIR> ..
12/27/2007 07:03 AM 3,770 SETUP.SUF
1 File(s) 3,770 bytes



I also performed another test -- I deleted the subdirectories that contain the clips, but I did not delete the main BPAV directory and the XML files.
When I start the EX Clip browser, it displays "X"s because the XML files are now pointing to clips that are missing. And when you turn on the camera, it knows there's something missing and on the LCD it prompts you "The card (A) needs to be restored", "Execute/Cancel", when you select "Execute", it recreates the XML files.

[Piotr Wozniacki]

Originally Posted by Bernard Racelis

[...] And when you turn on the camera, it knows there's something missing and on the LCD it prompts you "The card (A) needs to be restored", "Execute/Cancel", when you select "Execute", it recreates the XML files.

Will the camera do it right upon the card insertion and without interruption to recording to the other card, or only when say the other card becomes full, and the camera tries to switch to the card in question (in the latter case, I guess a recording interruption would be unavoidable)?