Picture Profile Recipes

Bill Ravens · February 9th, 2008, 08:33 AM

OLa...

Cine1 shows more black compression than CINE4. Cine1 will bring out more highlight detail and slightly crush the blacks. Accordingly, I would use CINE1 on brighter scenes than CINE4. Cine4 will bring out more shadow detail than Cine1.

While the matrix color adjustments can be applied to any Cine curve preset, there will be considerable luminance variations between the cine gammas. If the mood of your film calls for these level changes in different scenes, by all means, use them. However, I don't think a brightness change would be consistent within a single scene, depending on how it's implemented. For example, using the transition buttons to go from A to B in a timed ramp, could be very effective.

Ola Christoffersson · February 9th, 2008, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

OLa...

Cine1 shows more black compression than CINE4. Cine1 will bring out more highlight detail and slightly crush the blacks. Accordingly, I would use CINE1 on brighter scenes than CINE4. Cine4 will bring out more shadow detail than Cine1.

While the matrix color adjustments can be applied to any Cine curve preset, there will be considerable luminance variations between the cine gammas. If the mood of your film calls for these level changes in different scenes, by all means, use them. However, I don't think a brightness change would be consistent within a single scene, depending on how it's implemented. For example, using the transition buttons to go from A to B in a timed ramp, could be very effective.

Thanks for your quick reply Bill. I really enjoyed trying out your PP:s!!
Finally - for alround use - which gamma would be your choice? Best compromise? Cine3? And then switch to Cine1 on bright scenes and Cine4 when it is extremely murky?

/ola

Piotr Wozniacki · February 10th, 2008, 05:52 AM

Hi Bill,

I' m trying to understand better the theory behind colour matrix settings, which is not easy without a good (and calibrated) equipment. Please tell me wheter I understand your TC settings correctly:

Phase.................-5: why would you need to change that? May the default look different on a unit-to-unit basis?

R-G...................75
and
G-R................. -18: increase orange, substract yellow from green?

R-B.....................0
and
B-R...................-27: desaturate magenta from blue?

G-B...................-32
and
B-G.................. .13: increase blue and decrease greens in the cyan?

This is how I see it, please tell me whether I am right or not...

Also, another question: with all the pairs at default (zero) position, my unit's colours under regular home bulbs are definitely more accurate with the FL Light setting than anything else - why is that? Again, a unit-to-unit discrepancy? I'd think FL Light should work best under fluorescent lights...

PS: has anyone else noticed that - while of course much lower resolution - the EVF is actually much better for judging colour balance that the LCD? Perhaps it's just because you always look at it in the same way (no external light influence), or is it just my unit?

TIA

Bill Ravens · February 10th, 2008, 08:32 AM

http://www.paolociccone.com/hd100-calibration.html

Piotr Wozniacki · February 10th, 2008, 08:37 AM

Thanks Bill, I saw that site. Paolo there uses slightly different terminology, so if you just commented with "Correct" or "Incorrect" my above interpretations of what the individual pairs are supposed to do, I'd appreciae it indeed.

Bill Ravens · February 10th, 2008, 08:50 AM

When looking at the EX1 factory settings on the WFM, I found the colors to be inexact. My results lined up the color patches to the vectorscope targets much better than the factory settings. I rarely used "specialty" presets like FLLight and am not familiar with them. The EX1 matrix settings respond differently than the matrix settings on the HD110. My process was somewhat trial and error, not really understanding Sony's somewhat esoteric nomenclature. I assumed the 3 pairs were somehow related to Gain and rotation.

In my humble opinion, factory presets are consumer level conveniences that are not really useable. Nevertheless, there is more benefit to a casual user to go out and shoot, shoot, shoot than to spend hours dissecting the technical details. The EX1 is a very complex camera. Playing with settings without a WFM and vectorscope is inviting disaster. The human eye can't see critical details by looking at a viewfinder or monitor.

In any production process, especially a process that requires "tuning" or adjustment of the end product to meet certain QC requirements, the performance of any single unit is supposed to be within statistical variation of some median, usually 1 sigma. So, the answer to the question of whether there is unit to unit variation is really a function of how much money the manufacturer wanted to spend on QC. Generally speaking, a company like Sony needs to be fairly exact... with very small unit to unit variations.

Christopher Barry · February 11th, 2008, 07:04 PM

Bill, the thread is becoming too long going back through every page. You used your own custom wedge, and colour chart, like DSC? Printing method? Thank you.

Bill Ravens · February 15th, 2008, 09:20 AM

No....wrong!!
There is no way I could duplicate a DSC color chart. Read the material again. I used a DSC color chart.

I used my own B&W wedge. In this case, read the material again , as I made a disclaimer. The hi-lite/shadow levels were cross checked against the DCS chart.

Christopher Barry · February 15th, 2008, 05:47 PM

Thanks, Bill. Sorry I never went back and deleted/corrected the question.

Steven Thomas · February 19th, 2008, 01:51 AM

Bill just for an update,
what are you now using for your latest "True Color" profile?

Bill Ravens · February 19th, 2008, 09:27 AM

Steve...

I still use a mix of TC2 with Black around -8. I prefer STD1 because it gives me the best latitude in post. If the scene is outdoors, in sunlight, STD1 blows out easily and I switch to Cine1 or cine4.

I'm experimenting with a CINEMA setting instead of HISAT. New color matrix. If you're interested, let me know.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 19th, 2008, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

I'm experimenting with a CINEMA setting instead of HISAT. New color matrix. If you're interested, let me know.

I guess we ALL are, Bill! Frankly (but this is limited to what I can see with my naked eye), the Cinema matrix offers much less saturated colours - even when compared to OFF, not to mention Hisat - which is a bit strange. I also find the FL Light matrix to be better balanced in terms of the hue, even under incandescent light - why is that?

Please keep us posted!

Bill Ravens · February 19th, 2008, 09:54 AM

Piotr...

The EX1 seems to have the common digital camera sensor situation of being much more sensitive to reds than to blue hues. The FLLight preset boosts the red gain even further and I find it to be quite unacceptable. HISAT is a general, across the board boost in color saturation altho' the reds still dominate. My TC2 matrix is an attempt to get those reds to have less gain. The CINEMA mode boosts blue/cyan/green and attenuates the reds even further. So, with this as a starting point, I'm working new matrices along with a COLOR CORRECTION to boost cyan even further. Not for the feint of heart..;o)

If you like the FLLight, your eye must have a preference for warmer hues. I don't much care for that look.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 19th, 2008, 10:02 AM

You're right Bill - reds tend to dominate, but what I meant is that the reds in Hisat (unmodified) have too much yellowish/greenish tint to my liking (showing mostly in brown being too yellow-green).

I'm also trying to desaturate reds in favour of cyan, make browns less yellow, and get rid of magenta in blue. But without the proper equipment, so far I can't seem to achieve my goals...

Bill Ravens · February 19th, 2008, 10:51 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Piotr Wozniacki

I'm also trying to desaturate reds in favour of cyan, make browns less yellow, and get rid of magenta in blue. But without the proper equipment, so far I can't seem to achieve my goals...

I'm finding, with the vectorscope and DSC Labs color camette, that reducing the gain on the red/magenta and boosting the gain on the blue/cyan/green is very, very difficult. I've spent hours looking for the combination of matrix settings to get to this space; and, the best I've been able to do is TC2. My experiments with CINEMA have optimized the matrix by using COLOR CORRECTION mode in the cyan.Colors aren't as saturated, so I'm working with increased gain. It's a work in progress.

February 10th, 2008, 05:52 AM	#153
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	question to Bill on his TC colour pairs Hi Bill, I' m trying to understand better the theory behind colour matrix settings, which is not easy without a good (and calibrated) equipment. Please tell me wheter I understand your TC settings correctly: Phase.................-5: why would you need to change that? May the default look different on a unit-to-unit basis? R-G...................75 and G-R................. -18: increase orange, substract yellow from green? R-B.....................0 and B-R...................-27: desaturate magenta from blue? G-B...................-32 and B-G.................. .13: increase blue and decrease greens in the cyan? This is how I see it, please tell me whether I am right or not... Also, another question: with all the pairs at default (zero) position, my unit's colours under regular home bulbs are definitely more accurate with the FL Light setting than anything else - why is that? Again, a unit-to-unit discrepancy? I'd think FL Light should work best under fluorescent lights... PS: has anyone else noticed that - while of course much lower resolution - the EVF is actually much better for judging colour balance that the LCD? Perhaps it's just because you always look at it in the same way (no external light influence), or is it just my unit? TIA __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive Last edited by Piotr Wozniacki; February 10th, 2008 at 07:44 AM.

February 10th, 2008, 08:37 AM	#155
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Thanks Bill, I saw that site. Paolo there uses slightly different terminology, so if you just commented with "Correct" or "Incorrect" my above interpretations of what the individual pairs are supposed to do, I'd appreciae it indeed. __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 19th, 2008, 10:02 AM	#164
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	You're right Bill - reds tend to dominate, but what I meant is that the reds in Hisat (unmodified) have too much yellowish/greenish tint to my liking (showing mostly in brown being too yellow-green). I'm also trying to desaturate reds in favour of cyan, make browns less yellow, and get rid of magenta in blue. But without the proper equipment, so far I can't seem to achieve my goals... __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 9th, 2008, 08:33 AM	#151
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	OLa... Cine1 shows more black compression than CINE4. Cine1 will bring out more highlight detail and slightly crush the blacks. Accordingly, I would use CINE1 on brighter scenes than CINE4. Cine4 will bring out more shadow detail than Cine1. While the matrix color adjustments can be applied to any Cine curve preset, there will be considerable luminance variations between the cine gammas. If the mood of your film calls for these level changes in different scenes, by all means, use them. However, I don't think a brightness change would be consistent within a single scene, depending on how it's implemented. For example, using the transition buttons to go from A to B in a timed ramp, could be very effective.

February 10th, 2008, 08:32 AM	#154
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	http://www.paolociccone.com/hd100-calibration.html

February 10th, 2008, 08:50 AM	#156
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	When looking at the EX1 factory settings on the WFM, I found the colors to be inexact. My results lined up the color patches to the vectorscope targets much better than the factory settings. I rarely used "specialty" presets like FLLight and am not familiar with them. The EX1 matrix settings respond differently than the matrix settings on the HD110. My process was somewhat trial and error, not really understanding Sony's somewhat esoteric nomenclature. I assumed the 3 pairs were somehow related to Gain and rotation. In my humble opinion, factory presets are consumer level conveniences that are not really useable. Nevertheless, there is more benefit to a casual user to go out and shoot, shoot, shoot than to spend hours dissecting the technical details. The EX1 is a very complex camera. Playing with settings without a WFM and vectorscope is inviting disaster. The human eye can't see critical details by looking at a viewfinder or monitor. In any production process, especially a process that requires "tuning" or adjustment of the end product to meet certain QC requirements, the performance of any single unit is supposed to be within statistical variation of some median, usually 1 sigma. So, the answer to the question of whether there is unit to unit variation is really a function of how much money the manufacturer wanted to spend on QC. Generally speaking, a company like Sony needs to be fairly exact... with very small unit to unit variations.

February 11th, 2008, 07:04 PM	#157
Christopher Barry Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 107	Bill, the thread is becoming too long going back through every page. You used your own custom wedge, and colour chart, like DSC? Printing method? Thank you.

February 15th, 2008, 09:20 AM	#158
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	No....wrong!! There is no way I could duplicate a DSC color chart. Read the material again. I used a DSC color chart. I used my own B&W wedge. In this case, read the material again , as I made a disclaimer. The hi-lite/shadow levels were cross checked against the DCS chart.

February 15th, 2008, 05:47 PM	#159
Christopher Barry Regular Crew Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 107	Thanks, Bill. Sorry I never went back and deleted/corrected the question.

February 19th, 2008, 01:51 AM	#160
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Bill just for an update, what are you now using for your latest "True Color" profile?

February 19th, 2008, 09:27 AM	#161
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Steve... I still use a mix of TC2 with Black around -8. I prefer STD1 because it gives me the best latitude in post. If the scene is outdoors, in sunlight, STD1 blows out easily and I switch to Cine1 or cine4. I'm experimenting with a CINEMA setting instead of HISAT. New color matrix. If you're interested, let me know.

February 19th, 2008, 09:54 AM	#163
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Piotr... The EX1 seems to have the common digital camera sensor situation of being much more sensitive to reds than to blue hues. The FLLight preset boosts the red gain even further and I find it to be quite unacceptable. HISAT is a general, across the board boost in color saturation altho' the reds still dominate. My TC2 matrix is an attempt to get those reds to have less gain. The CINEMA mode boosts blue/cyan/green and attenuates the reds even further. So, with this as a starting point, I'm working new matrices along with a COLOR CORRECTION to boost cyan even further. Not for the feint of heart..;o) If you like the FLLight, your eye must have a preference for warmer hues. I don't much care for that look.