Picture Profile Recipes

Piotr Wozniacki · February 4th, 2008, 01:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael H. Stevens

YES. All the STD gammas are bright and contrasty and generic looking. No need to ever use them.

Michael. no offence but your answer is a generalization and as such doesn't satisfy me. The STD gammas, while "generic looking", are usually the safest ones (thus becoming the factory default) - so what happened here is a bit of a surpise...

Anyway, which of the other parameters that differ from the factory settings (hisat matrix, or the matrix color pairs changes) could have caused the oversaturation and then abrupt blowing-out of highlights (cause this is how I'd describe what's happening to the blue behind the tree branches)?

Any opinion welcome. Unfortunately, I do not have means to test it step-by-step using even a good, calibrated monitor - not t mention the WFM that Bill was using...

Bill Ravens · February 4th, 2008, 01:34 PM

Piotr..

By all rights, your question should be moved to another thread. This one is for profiles. I will suggest, for now, that you check your DETAIL and CRISPENING settings. DETAIL ON will sharpen the image causing halo if overdone.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 4th, 2008, 01:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Piotr..

By all rights, your question should be moved to another thread. This one is for profiles. I will suggest, for now, that you check your DETAIL and CRISPENING settings. DETAIL ON will sharpen the image causing halo if overdone.

OK Bill, I will - but my settings are exactly what you suggested in your own post

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showpost....9&postcount=64

(this thread), and in it you said "It would be great to have someone validate my results". This is what I was trying to do; and believe me I entered the settings, exactly following your recipe (no DETAIL or CRISPENING changes).

At least could you please confirm you can see the problem in my first grab, and if so - what is the English name for this abrupt clipping of oversaturated highlights? Is it a normal behaviour with the STD3 gamma whose default Knee Point SATURATION is as high as 50? As you can see in my sig, I am still learning so your help would be much appreciated...

Mark David Williams · February 4th, 2008, 02:46 PM

Piotr hope you dont mind me commenting!

How I saw this was a combination of two colour temperatures in the foreground and background. Also the clouds were overexposing the image. Perhaps a poloriser or a graduated ND filter? I'd like to have seen a picture at standard settings to compare.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 4th, 2008, 03:29 PM

No, of course not Mark - you're welcome.

I'm seeing a serious problem here (either with the settings or my camera), but let's take the discussion elsewhere, as Bill suggested:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...095#post820095

Thanks;

Piotr

Ola Christoffersson · February 4th, 2008, 03:37 PM

OK - I have just read this complete thread and I must say that it is all a bit over my head. However I am very eager to try out Bills settings for myself. On the last couple of pages of the thread the settings seemed to branch out into a few variations and I cannot really make out the exact settings that Bill ended up with. Bill - could you please post the exact settings that you are now using along with a very brief description or comment on each setting? That would be very helpfull! I would rather not download your file and loose all of my camera settings loading it into my cam.

Thank you again for your hard work! Hoping to try out your settings on wednesday.

/ola

Bill Ravens · February 4th, 2008, 03:55 PM

Please see post #120. I've already done as you asked.

Michael H. Stevens · February 4th, 2008, 04:25 PM

Piotr (and others) you CAN monitor these settings while they are being made either with a good monitor or later in post because you can adjust any of the settings on EX1 WHILE RECORDING. So set your camera up with that scene again and start tweaking. There is no meta data so you will need give a commentary for when you review later.

Cody Stanton · February 5th, 2008, 01:31 AM

[QUOTE=Bill Ravens;815954]I've reworked my original profile based on some feedback and observations I received. It was suggested I use a CINE profile for gamma, reds have been dialed down, black level was raised, slightly. Overall, this is an improvement, I really like this profile, altho' my test was quick. I've posted a framegrab, so the comparisons are here:

factory setting(PP Off):
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=801&c=2

My TC1 profile:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=802&c=2

My TC2 profile:
http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=826&c=2

And the recipe is:
Matrix ...............on
Select................hisat
Level..................0
Phase.................-5
R-G...................75
R-B...................0
G-R...................-18
G-B...................-32
B-R...................-27
B-G...................13

Gamma Level..............-40
Gamma Select.............CINE1
Black..........................-12
Black Gamma..............0

Once again, please set your white balance before using. Let me have feedback on your use of the profile.

By the way, Chris, I tried to upload the .suf file and the server still won't let me.[/QUOTE

Cody Stanton · February 5th, 2008, 02:23 AM

I just used Bill Ravens Picture Profile exactly as detailed with the Gamma Level changed to 0 instead of -40 and results were fantastic. This was done outdoors on a bright but overcast day.I'm sure Bill's settings are also great for a sunny day. But can anyone tell me if I need to make any changes to these settings if I'm sooting outdoors at night in low light conditions?
Any help will be greatly appreciated.

Ola Christoffersson · February 5th, 2008, 03:07 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Please see post #120. I've already done as you asked.

Sorry Bill - I was probably unclear. I am aware of the .suf-file in post #120 but I would rather not download it and loose all of my own camera settings. What I was hoping for was all the current settings in text in a post with comments, especially on when to use the different gamma curves. For example I am not sure what gamma value to set when not using cinnegamma curves. And which gamma curve and setting should be used if I don't want to change the cameras default gamma and only use your new colour settings? I am sorry if this all sounds daft. I have been trying to figure it all out by reading the whole thread but I have a feeling that the introduction of the cinnegamma curves got me confused.

Piotr Wozniacki · February 5th, 2008, 07:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bill Ravens

Piotr..

By all rights, your question should be moved to another thread. This one is for profiles. I will suggest, for now, that you check your DETAIL and CRISPENING settings. DETAIL ON will sharpen the image causing halo if overdone.

Bill,

I recreated tests with your STD3 and Hisat matrix PP, and the bottom line is that - with standard KNEE settings - it's no good for even slightly backlit situations. To avoid the higlights clipping unstability (i.e. staying saturated behind the "shadow" of e.g. trees, while blowing-away to pure white elsewhere, thus creating the ugly patches), one must stay way into the left exposure side, which tends to badly oversaturate even slightly underexposed areas.

The PP in question might be of some use, but requires KNEE adjustment. Will be playing with that and report.

Thanks everyone for their response, and sorry if my post has been a little bit too much alarming - didn't want to highjack "your" thread :)

Michael H. Stevens · February 5th, 2008, 09:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ola Christoffersson

What I was hoping for was all the current settings in text in a post with comments, especially on when to use the different gamma curves. .

I second this. A textual summary of info to date with NOTES on when applicable posted by those who know best would be great.

Steven Thomas · February 5th, 2008, 10:19 AM

I believe Adam Wilt's own characterizations of the gammas gives us a good idea of where the knee kicks in for the cine gamma curves. Thank you to Adam for providing this information. It would of been nice if Sony provided some detail.
http://provideocoalition.com/index.p..._camcorder/P3/

Ola Christoffersson · February 9th, 2008, 07:01 AM

So - I have done two days of testing of the TC2-profile now and I will not be able to turn back to the original settings!
I have to admit that I was a bit afraid that these settings would only be "for effect" and that I would lose information using them. My first tests seemed to confirm these fears. The pictures looked very good but also very crushed and a bit over saturated. However after doing more tests on a sunny day and looking at the results in Avids Waveform monitor I am not worried anymore. I am not a video-signal-techy but to me it looks like the Cinegamma curves move all of the information into the 16-234 IRE-range without anything disappearing. The standard setting has a lot of info above allowed white and it seems to push the blacks up a bit too high, leaving no info in the bottom region.
As I said, I am not good at the theoretical part of this so correct me if I am wrong. Also I am blabbering. The reason for this post is to ask a couple of question to all of you who now more about PP and gamma curves than me.

Here it goes:

1. Are the Cinegamma 1,3 and 4 basically curves that give the same "feel" but to a different extent? In other words - can I switch between these curves depending on lighting and weather conditions and still intercut between the pictures or am I supposed to select one Cinegamma on each project?

2. If so - am I correct in saying Cinegamma 1 in high contrast light (sunny day) and Cinegamma 4 when overcast or is it the other way around?

February 4th, 2008, 03:29 PM	#140
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	No, of course not Mark - you're welcome. I'm seeing a serious problem here (either with the settings or my camera), but let's take the discussion elsewhere, as Bill suggested: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...095#post820095 Thanks; Piotr __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

February 5th, 2008, 01:31 AM	#144
Cody Stanton Tourist Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New York City, NY Posts: 3	[QUOTE=Bill Ravens;815954]I've reworked my original profile based on some feedback and observations I received. It was suggested I use a CINE profile for gamma, reds have been dialed down, black level was raised, slightly. Overall, this is an improvement, I really like this profile, altho' my test was quick. I've posted a framegrab, so the comparisons are here: factory setting(PP Off): http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=801&c=2 My TC1 profile: http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=802&c=2 My TC2 profile: http://www.dvinfo.net/gallery/showimage.php?i=826&c=2 And the recipe is: Matrix ...............on Select................hisat Level..................0 Phase.................-5 R-G...................75 R-B...................0 G-R...................-18 G-B...................-32 B-R...................-27 B-G...................13 Gamma Level..............-40 Gamma Select.............CINE1 Black..........................-12 Black Gamma..............0 Once again, please set your white balance before using. Let me have feedback on your use of the profile. By the way, Chris, I tried to upload the .suf file and the server still won't let me.[/QUOTE Last edited by Cody Stanton; February 5th, 2008 at 02:28 AM. Reason: Accidently posted my message in someone else's page. Sorry,I'm a new member.

February 5th, 2008, 02:23 AM	#145
Cody Stanton Tourist Join Date: Feb 2008 Location: New York City, NY Posts: 3	Picture Profile For Night/low Light Shooting I just used Bill Ravens Picture Profile exactly as detailed with the Gamma Level changed to 0 instead of -40 and results were fantastic. This was done outdoors on a bright but overcast day.I'm sure Bill's settings are also great for a sunny day. But can anyone tell me if I need to make any changes to these settings if I'm sooting outdoors at night in low light conditions? Any help will be greatly appreciated.

February 4th, 2008, 01:34 PM	#137
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Piotr.. By all rights, your question should be moved to another thread. This one is for profiles. I will suggest, for now, that you check your DETAIL and CRISPENING settings. DETAIL ON will sharpen the image causing halo if overdone.

February 4th, 2008, 02:46 PM	#139
Mark David Williams Major Player Join Date: Dec 2007 Location: Hertfordshire UK Posts: 414	Piotr hope you dont mind me commenting! How I saw this was a combination of two colour temperatures in the foreground and background. Also the clouds were overexposing the image. Perhaps a poloriser or a graduated ND filter? I'd like to have seen a picture at standard settings to compare.

February 4th, 2008, 03:37 PM	#141
Ola Christoffersson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 462	OK - I have just read this complete thread and I must say that it is all a bit over my head. However I am very eager to try out Bills settings for myself. On the last couple of pages of the thread the settings seemed to branch out into a few variations and I cannot really make out the exact settings that Bill ended up with. Bill - could you please post the exact settings that you are now using along with a very brief description or comment on each setting? That would be very helpfull! I would rather not download your file and loose all of my camera settings loading it into my cam. Thank you again for your hard work! Hoping to try out your settings on wednesday. /ola

February 4th, 2008, 03:55 PM	#142
Bill Ravens Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: santa fe, nm Posts: 3,264 Images: 10	Please see post #120. I've already done as you asked.

February 4th, 2008, 04:25 PM	#143
Michael H. Stevens Major Player Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Palm Desert, California Posts: 311	Piotr (and others) you CAN monitor these settings while they are being made either with a good monitor or later in post because you can adjust any of the settings on EX1 WHILE RECORDING. So set your camera up with that scene again and start tweaking. There is no meta data so you will need give a commentary for when you review later.

February 5th, 2008, 10:19 AM	#149
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	I believe Adam Wilt's own characterizations of the gammas gives us a good idea of where the knee kicks in for the cine gamma curves. Thank you to Adam for providing this information. It would of been nice if Sony provided some detail. http://provideocoalition.com/index.p..._camcorder/P3/

February 9th, 2008, 07:01 AM	#150
Ola Christoffersson Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 462	So - I have done two days of testing of the TC2-profile now and I will not be able to turn back to the original settings! I have to admit that I was a bit afraid that these settings would only be "for effect" and that I would lose information using them. My first tests seemed to confirm these fears. The pictures looked very good but also very crushed and a bit over saturated. However after doing more tests on a sunny day and looking at the results in Avids Waveform monitor I am not worried anymore. I am not a video-signal-techy but to me it looks like the Cinegamma curves move all of the information into the 16-234 IRE-range without anything disappearing. The standard setting has a lot of info above allowed white and it seems to push the blacks up a bit too high, leaving no info in the bottom region. As I said, I am not good at the theoretical part of this so correct me if I am wrong. Also I am blabbering. The reason for this post is to ask a couple of question to all of you who now more about PP and gamma curves than me. Here it goes: 1. Are the Cinegamma 1,3 and 4 basically curves that give the same "feel" but to a different extent? In other words - can I switch between these curves depending on lighting and weather conditions and still intercut between the pictures or am I supposed to select one Cinegamma on each project? 2. If so - am I correct in saying Cinegamma 1 in high contrast light (sunny day) and Cinegamma 4 when overcast or is it the other way around?