Some Grabs with Detail Off at DVinfo.net

Eric Pascarelli · December 10th, 2007, 09:51 AM

These were shot with detail off and standard gamma 4.

The first is 720p and the second is 1080p.

They are full quality jpgs.

I didn't CC them at all, but I think the Photoshop conversion may have re-gamma'd them, as they appear a bit dark here.

Steven Thomas · December 10th, 2007, 10:00 AM

Eric thanks,
detail off looks great, good detail without the harsh edges.
Interesting, detail ON and set to default all "0" settings looks great
without adding much artificial look.

The sensors seems to hold better detail than others I've tried with detail off.

I'm impressed.

Paul Curtis · December 10th, 2007, 11:28 AM

Eric,

these are really nice. i think the edge enhancement is making a lot of the other images look pretty bad, for example the ones that steven linked too on the 'a few more grabs thread'. You can see the ringing around the small highlights which i assume is edge enhancement being dumb and sharpening those highlight transitions, whereas the little lights in the 1080p version here are much more pleasing.

Out of curiosity did you do any footage with the enhancement on to compare?

cheers
paul

Eric Pascarelli · December 10th, 2007, 11:42 AM

I did not do an A/B test - but I will do that next time I shoot with it.

I'm very happy that the camera behaves well with no edge sharpening - this much better for visual effects - one of my primary uses for the camera.

My sense is that shooting at 1080p and downresing to 720 at 4:2:2 with no edge detailing will make for some great green screens.

I'll be testing that soon as well.

Paul Curtis · December 10th, 2007, 11:45 AM

i agree totally with you on that. The sensor is sharp enough that you can quite easily see the colour sampling, especially on red. Would love to see an A and B.

there's the cineform recorder and the convergent designs ones that may allow 4:2:2 at 1080 from the HD-SDI. Even better if that turns out to be 10 bit (sony says yes, some testing says no)

cheers
paul

Thomas Smet · December 10th, 2007, 01:04 PM

This is awesome!

This is exactly how a camera should look. (in my opinion of course)

This is also where the real beauty of native resolution chips really comes through. A good camera shouldn't need a lot of edge enhancement.

I agree this camera should be the ultimate VFX camera.

Thank you so much for posting those images. They almost look photographic.

Another nice reason for this is if you want 720p material to shoot with but may later on blow up to 1080p. blown up images that are sharpened do not look as good as blowing up a raw image and then add some sharpness to the 1080p version.

The way I look at it only moving up to 4k can give you the highest quality detail over this.

Steven Thomas · December 10th, 2007, 03:28 PM

I agree.
The more I look at those two images with no detail added, they really do look organic. The colors seems to blend real smooth without harsh edges.

Some may say they look a little softer, of course they do.
But, all the detail remains intact and not exaggerated.

Dave Elston · December 11th, 2007, 05:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Thomas Smet

I agree this camera should be the ultimate VFX camera.

While I would love this to be the case, there must be some degree of concern about using a rolling shutter for VFx work, particularly where motion-tracking is required.
I believe it has been mentioned in other threads that the smallest amount of skew in-frame will throw tracking software off-object/mark pretty quickly, I can't see a straight-forward workaround for this characteristic (weakness) when using the EX1 for this particular purpose.
If the "skew" effect could be predicted in some way then you could perhaps construct algorithms to compensate, but my understanding is that the degree of skew is determined by each object's own speed/motion in-frame as well as (and not ONLY) global camera motion (pan/track).

Eric Pascarelli · December 11th, 2007, 06:33 AM

As I mentioned in another thread, even film cameras have a "rolling shutter" to some (lesser) extent.

But it's true that too much skew will potentially confuse boujou etc. I think that perhaps too much has been made of this issue.

Of course it warrants a test, which I will try to do in the next week or so.

Thomas Smet · December 11th, 2007, 08:56 AM

Well of course it all depends on how extreme the project is. If there is a lot of fast movement then yes this may be a concern. I'm not sure if I agree about the motion tracking however. I would think it would only be a problem if the group of pixels was so messed up it no longer had the same value anymore. Increase the track area may help out here. I personally have never tracked any CMOS footage yet but I have tracked a lot of film footage and film motion blur can really make tracking just as hard with super fast motion because the value and color of the tracking point can really get warped. There is also the fact that if something is moving that fast you don't need tracking precision as much because all you have to do is get close and the effect will look real. Nobody is going to notice if motion is off a little bit for material that moves that fast.

Like I said before though there can still be a lot of VFX shots that have little to moderate movement in the frame so rolling shutter should not be an issue at all.

December 10th, 2007, 09:51 AM	#1
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	Some Grabs with Detail Off These were shot with detail off and standard gamma 4. The first is 720p and the second is 1080p. They are full quality jpgs. I didn't CC them at all, but I think the Photoshop conversion may have re-gamma'd them, as they appear a bit dark here. Attached Thumbnails

December 10th, 2007, 10:00 AM	#2
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Eric thanks, detail off looks great, good detail without the harsh edges. Interesting, detail ON and set to default all "0" settings looks great without adding much artificial look. The sensors seems to hold better detail than others I've tried with detail off. I'm impressed.

December 10th, 2007, 11:28 AM	#3
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	Eric, these are really nice. i think the edge enhancement is making a lot of the other images look pretty bad, for example the ones that steven linked too on the 'a few more grabs thread'. You can see the ringing around the small highlights which i assume is edge enhancement being dumb and sharpening those highlight transitions, whereas the little lights in the 1080p version here are much more pleasing. Out of curiosity did you do any footage with the enhancement on to compare? cheers paul

December 10th, 2007, 11:42 AM	#4
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	I did not do an A/B test - but I will do that next time I shoot with it. I'm very happy that the camera behaves well with no edge sharpening - this much better for visual effects - one of my primary uses for the camera. My sense is that shooting at 1080p and downresing to 720 at 4:2:2 with no edge detailing will make for some great green screens. I'll be testing that soon as well.

December 10th, 2007, 11:45 AM	#5
Paul Curtis Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: canterbury Posts: 411	i agree totally with you on that. The sensor is sharp enough that you can quite easily see the colour sampling, especially on red. Would love to see an A and B. there's the cineform recorder and the convergent designs ones that may allow 4:2:2 at 1080 from the HD-SDI. Even better if that turns out to be 10 bit (sony says yes, some testing says no) cheers paul

December 10th, 2007, 01:04 PM	#6
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	This is awesome! This is exactly how a camera should look. (in my opinion of course) This is also where the real beauty of native resolution chips really comes through. A good camera shouldn't need a lot of edge enhancement. I agree this camera should be the ultimate VFX camera. Thank you so much for posting those images. They almost look photographic. Another nice reason for this is if you want 720p material to shoot with but may later on blow up to 1080p. blown up images that are sharpened do not look as good as blowing up a raw image and then add some sharpness to the 1080p version. The way I look at it only moving up to 4k can give you the highest quality detail over this.

December 10th, 2007, 03:28 PM	#7
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	I agree. The more I look at those two images with no detail added, they really do look organic. The colors seems to blend real smooth without harsh edges. Some may say they look a little softer, of course they do. But, all the detail remains intact and not exaggerated.

December 11th, 2007, 06:33 AM	#9
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	As I mentioned in another thread, even film cameras have a "rolling shutter" to some (lesser) extent. But it's true that too much skew will potentially confuse boujou etc. I think that perhaps too much has been made of this issue. Of course it warrants a test, which I will try to do in the next week or so.

December 11th, 2007, 08:56 AM	#10
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Well of course it all depends on how extreme the project is. If there is a lot of fast movement then yes this may be a concern. I'm not sure if I agree about the motion tracking however. I would think it would only be a problem if the group of pixels was so messed up it no longer had the same value anymore. Increase the track area may help out here. I personally have never tracked any CMOS footage yet but I have tracked a lot of film footage and film motion blur can really make tracking just as hard with super fast motion because the value and color of the tracking point can really get warped. There is also the fact that if something is moving that fast you don't need tracking precision as much because all you have to do is get close and the effect will look real. Nobody is going to notice if motion is off a little bit for material that moves that fast. Like I said before though there can still be a lot of VFX shots that have little to moderate movement in the frame so rolling shutter should not be an issue at all.