shoot 35Mb/s, edit proxy files in Avid, “rez up” in FCP?

Robert Petersen · December 8th, 2007, 04:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

My own sense is that Avid, with its announcement that they wont be at the next NAB, is focusing on the very highest end of the market (big facility needs) so their "lower" end products are not going to be a main focus. It seems to me they're ceding that market (small post and 1 person shops) to FCP, Adobe, Sony, etc. Basically I'm not sure how quick the updates will be if you don't have a Nitris on up.

I hope it would be the other way around. Avid has been loosing ground to FCP, Vegas, etc. This is the market that is growing tremendously, and thus is the area where they can make or loose the most money. Avid needs an affordable product like Xpress Pro with features exceeding the expectations of the customer, without requiring an expensive and "unaffordable" annual support contract. With this, they need to improve the turnaround time to support new cameras and formats.

Chris Leong · December 8th, 2007, 05:56 PM

Don't quote me on this as I've had it third hand at best, but apparently the 'big" clients are actually 'bigger' than mere entertainment corporations, so us mere TV professionals are also being left at the altar.

The Avid systems that really did work (Meridians, version 12s, etc on the Mac, OS 9 and OSX and Unity systems) are not being supported or continued beyond the near future. This is probably to do with the Avid vs. Apple fight and Avid's migration away from the Macs (and of course, Apple's introduction of FCP in the first place).

The new Avid MC Soft 2.7 series leaves quite a bit to be desired (read about it on the Avid forums) and the response time and quality of tech support is also apparently on the wane. I'm using 2.7.2 to 2.7.7 here at work (we have a dozen Avids here) and wish for the golden olden days...

Maybe it's just that time of the year.

Actually, Moore's Law says it's about time for Mr. Oakley or similar to make a RedEdit system that will blow everybody else out of the water.

In any event, just like a photographer needs to know how to use a camera from an 8x10 plate camera to the latest pocket digital camera, I feel that it's high time the rest of the industry follows suit. And that means us.

These edit systems are becoming so cheap now, and the memory too (I just saw a standalone 1.5TB HDD for under $300 at my local electronics store) that there's really no excuse for not at least being on nodding terms with Avid, FCP, Vegas, PPro, iMovieHD, and anything else that may be around.

After all, they all do pretty much the same thing. And everything today is equally high tech (well, at least, compared to yesterday).

Adapt -- or cut sprockets! (which I totally enjoy too, BTW).

Cheers
Chris

Chris Leong · December 8th, 2007, 06:00 PM

Robert - I do know that there's a direction that most people say makes more money - which is to supply lower cost product to more people - but that's not necessarily the most profitable for every company.

The retail market is very labor intensive. More people and more units sold means more people to upkeep those products. Which means more overhead.

So there comes a time when some companies say "quality, not quantity". Fewer products. Less staff concentrating on fewer clients who pay more for higher quality.

Avid's never really been in the dime store business.

Craig Seeman · December 8th, 2007, 11:35 PM

Chris Leong has really explained it well. I've been on other forums where Avid's announcement about NAB and have seen some serious analysis about where they're heading. I believe at least one Avid rep was involved in those discussions.

Basically Avid is not going to try to compete against FCP. They're really looking to be a high end company where the sales are direct and the dollars are huge and the target market is small in number (but very big budget).

Please do continue to use Avids if you find their tools useful. Many people like Avid's media management over FCP for example. Me too. I was an Avid editor for over 10 years. I just don't think the support for their "basic" NLEs will be their focus though as time goes on. It's just not their big money maker and the cost benefit for their development resources isn't there for them.

There are plenty of good NLEs to choose from now. FCP is probably now about the most dominant (Apple I believe claims this) but Adobe is now cross platform (back on the Mac) once again. You know Vegas is going to be compatible with any direction Sony cameras head in (but wonder about things like P2 if you need that support). There's some other good systems to choose from too.

In general when you think of your NLE choices such things enter into decisions such as whether you're going to be a "closed" or "open" shop as well as what your best/ideal workflow is.

If the EX1 and/or XDCAM is going to be part of your "bread and butter" you may not want to wait months for compatibility and even then that may not be "complete" based on your system. Keep that in mind when making your decisions. For me, time is money and faster workflow is better than dealing with workaround codec conversions that take time, etc.

Leonard Levy · December 9th, 2007, 01:27 AM

This is bad news for me, as one of my main clients and really a "target" client for the Ex-1 (because they do everything in 1080) cuts on an Avid.

Chris Leong · December 9th, 2007, 01:41 AM

Leonard
Don't despair. What I was really saying is that if you have a handle on all the going programs, then it's fairly easy to punt media from one platform or NLE to another without sacrificing quality along the way.
Just ingest Vegas, convert to a solid in-house mezzanine format, then translate into Avid friendly media for editing there.
Sure, there are more steps, but you're going to have to archive in any event, and that means making copies of original media.
So make them in different formats so you don't have all your eggs in one digital codec basket, is all.
And prep your media for Avid ingest, if your client wants that, in the meantime.
I think it's only a matter of time before someone like Squared 5 comes up with an XDCam EX plug in for their MPEG Streamclip do-everything converter program. After that, all of this discussion will be moot.
Don't forget, the camera only came out a week or two ago!
Cheers
Chris

Peter Kraft · December 9th, 2007, 03:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Leong

Chris, I think it's only a matter of time before someone like Squared 5 comes up with an XDCam EX plug in for their MPEG Streamclip do-everything converter program. After that, all of this discussion will be moot.Chris

Well, did just that and asked Squared5 about a possibility to convert EX1 files with MPEGStreamClip "into anything", a long time ago. But have had no response to my request so far. Perhaps some of you should contact him as well so that he gets an idea, how badly such a workflow is needed. Just in case, you don't have his URL at hand: www.squared5.com

Malcolm Hamilton · December 9th, 2007, 02:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Leong

... it's fairly easy to punt media from one platform or NLE to another without sacrificing quality along the way.
Just ingest Vegas, convert to a solid in-house mezzanine format, then translate into Avid friendly media for editing there
Chris

Hi Chris,
this intrigues me... would you mind elaborating? Are you saying I could ingest via Vegas onto my Mac hd, and then convert to MXF (and then import into Avid Xpress Pro)?
If this is the case, is Vegas the only app that allows for this conversion, or would FCP (which I own, but don't yet know how to use) also allow me to ingest and convert EX1 files?
I don't mind the extra step(s) in the short term, at least.
Cheers,
Malcolm

Andreas Johansson · December 9th, 2007, 04:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Keith Rollinson

Hi Andreas,

I too am looking for more extensibility from Avid than currently offered @ HDV25 rez, and saw your site & link to ffmpeg.

So I downloaded it -- file name is fmpeg.rev11143.7z -- but it of course will not open on a windows desktop. Do I need to change the extension? Many thanks.

Keith

Its zipped using something called 7zip hence the extension. You need 7zip to unzip it. its open source so its free.

http://www.7-zip.org/

Andreas Johansson · December 9th, 2007, 04:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Malcolm Hamilton

Hi Andreas,
I know I should just face up to it, and learn FCP, but... I'm just so used to Avid!

...he was probably talking about some other cameras in the Sony line-up.
Cheers,
Malcolm

If you follow my tips you don't need to learn FCP. And yes he was talking about XDCAM or XDCAM HD that uses proxy files.

Since you seem to have a non intel mac you could probably not use the Sony Clip Browser, but you could probably use ffmpeg to convert Ex1.mp4 to Avid DNxHD.mov files. You have to find ffmpeg for OSX by your self. Try google ffmpeg osx.

There is something called ffmpegX that maybe could be used since its a OSX Gui for ffmpeg.

http://www.ffmpegx.com/

You have to try for yourself, the latest ffmpeg do have DnxHD support, but if ffmpegX doesn't use the latest version you have to dig deeper and maybe compile it from source. That on the other hand is not a thing I will go into.

Malcolm Hamilton · December 11th, 2007, 11:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andreas Johansson

If you follow my tips you don't need to learn FCP// Since you seem to have a non intel mac you could probably not use the Sony Clip Browser//
There is something called ffmpegX that maybe could be used since its a OSX Gui for ffmpeg/... the latest ffmpeg do have DnxHD support, but if ffmpegX doesn't use the latest version you have to dig deeper and maybe compile it from source. That on the other hand is not a thing I will go into.

Hi Andreas,
Thank you for your patience. I'd appreciate just a little more advice - -
ffmpegX converts to DivX, AVI XviD, H.264 MP4, MOV, DV, 3GP, Sony PSP, MP2, MP3, AAC, AC3, MPEG-1, MPEG-2, VCD, CVD, SVCD, KVCD, KSVCD, DVD, KDVD and MPEG-TS... but not DnxHD.

So... this means it won't work for me, right? (I just know that Avid Xpress Pro likes .mxf files... not sure what DnxHD is).

Now, one thing I didn't mention. I don't have an Intel Mac now, but next month I'm getting a Mac Pro, which is Intel. Does this change the equation for me?
This means I'd be able to use the Sony clip browser... but this still wouldn't help me get 35Mb/s files into Avid Xpress Pro, would it?

Thanks so much,
Malcolm

Andreas Johansson · December 11th, 2007, 01:15 PM

DNxHD is .mov files. Quicktime as container and DNxHD as codec.

A Mac Pro won't get 35Mbit into Avid using Sony Clip Browser but at least 25Mbit for starters.

Using ffmpeg you should be able to use my simple scripts in a Terminal. I don't know for sure how to install ffmpeg in osx but since I'm writing this on a Macbook Pro in Linux I can always reinstall Osx and try it out for you. Maybe I'll get to it before your new machine arrives.

Or you can google for ffmpeg and osx I know I used to have it on my Tiger installation.

Andreas Johansson · December 11th, 2007, 06:28 PM

This is a ffmpeg on osx install howto.

http://stephenjungels.com/jungels.ne...peg-howto.html

December 8th, 2007, 05:56 PM	#17
Chris Leong Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles CA USA Posts: 507	Don't quote me on this as I've had it third hand at best, but apparently the 'big" clients are actually 'bigger' than mere entertainment corporations, so us mere TV professionals are also being left at the altar. The Avid systems that really did work (Meridians, version 12s, etc on the Mac, OS 9 and OSX and Unity systems) are not being supported or continued beyond the near future. This is probably to do with the Avid vs. Apple fight and Avid's migration away from the Macs (and of course, Apple's introduction of FCP in the first place). The new Avid MC Soft 2.7 series leaves quite a bit to be desired (read about it on the Avid forums) and the response time and quality of tech support is also apparently on the wane. I'm using 2.7.2 to 2.7.7 here at work (we have a dozen Avids here) and wish for the golden olden days... Maybe it's just that time of the year. Actually, Moore's Law says it's about time for Mr. Oakley or similar to make a RedEdit system that will blow everybody else out of the water. In any event, just like a photographer needs to know how to use a camera from an 8x10 plate camera to the latest pocket digital camera, I feel that it's high time the rest of the industry follows suit. And that means us. These edit systems are becoming so cheap now, and the memory too (I just saw a standalone 1.5TB HDD for under $300 at my local electronics store) that there's really no excuse for not at least being on nodding terms with Avid, FCP, Vegas, PPro, iMovieHD, and anything else that may be around. After all, they all do pretty much the same thing. And everything today is equally high tech (well, at least, compared to yesterday). Adapt -- or cut sprockets! (which I totally enjoy too, BTW). Cheers Chris

December 8th, 2007, 06:00 PM	#18
Chris Leong Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles CA USA Posts: 507	Robert - I do know that there's a direction that most people say makes more money - which is to supply lower cost product to more people - but that's not necessarily the most profitable for every company. The retail market is very labor intensive. More people and more units sold means more people to upkeep those products. Which means more overhead. So there comes a time when some companies say "quality, not quantity". Fewer products. Less staff concentrating on fewer clients who pay more for higher quality. Avid's never really been in the dime store business.

December 8th, 2007, 11:35 PM	#19
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Chris Leong has really explained it well. I've been on other forums where Avid's announcement about NAB and have seen some serious analysis about where they're heading. I believe at least one Avid rep was involved in those discussions. Basically Avid is not going to try to compete against FCP. They're really looking to be a high end company where the sales are direct and the dollars are huge and the target market is small in number (but very big budget). Please do continue to use Avids if you find their tools useful. Many people like Avid's media management over FCP for example. Me too. I was an Avid editor for over 10 years. I just don't think the support for their "basic" NLEs will be their focus though as time goes on. It's just not their big money maker and the cost benefit for their development resources isn't there for them. There are plenty of good NLEs to choose from now. FCP is probably now about the most dominant (Apple I believe claims this) but Adobe is now cross platform (back on the Mac) once again. You know Vegas is going to be compatible with any direction Sony cameras head in (but wonder about things like P2 if you need that support). There's some other good systems to choose from too. In general when you think of your NLE choices such things enter into decisions such as whether you're going to be a "closed" or "open" shop as well as what your best/ideal workflow is. If the EX1 and/or XDCAM is going to be part of your "bread and butter" you may not want to wait months for compatibility and even then that may not be "complete" based on your system. Keep that in mind when making your decisions. For me, time is money and faster workflow is better than dealing with workaround codec conversions that take time, etc.

December 9th, 2007, 01:27 AM	#20
Leonard Levy Trustee Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: USA Posts: 1,684	This is bad news for me, as one of my main clients and really a "target" client for the Ex-1 (because they do everything in 1080) cuts on an Avid.

December 9th, 2007, 01:41 AM	#21
Chris Leong Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles CA USA Posts: 507	Leonard Don't despair. What I was really saying is that if you have a handle on all the going programs, then it's fairly easy to punt media from one platform or NLE to another without sacrificing quality along the way. Just ingest Vegas, convert to a solid in-house mezzanine format, then translate into Avid friendly media for editing there. Sure, there are more steps, but you're going to have to archive in any event, and that means making copies of original media. So make them in different formats so you don't have all your eggs in one digital codec basket, is all. And prep your media for Avid ingest, if your client wants that, in the meantime. I think it's only a matter of time before someone like Squared 5 comes up with an XDCam EX plug in for their MPEG Streamclip do-everything converter program. After that, all of this discussion will be moot. Don't forget, the camera only came out a week or two ago! Cheers Chris

December 11th, 2007, 01:15 PM	#27
Andreas Johansson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 93	DNxHD is .mov files. Quicktime as container and DNxHD as codec. A Mac Pro won't get 35Mbit into Avid using Sony Clip Browser but at least 25Mbit for starters. Using ffmpeg you should be able to use my simple scripts in a Terminal. I don't know for sure how to install ffmpeg in osx but since I'm writing this on a Macbook Pro in Linux I can always reinstall Osx and try it out for you. Maybe I'll get to it before your new machine arrives. Or you can google for ffmpeg and osx I know I used to have it on my Tiger installation.

December 11th, 2007, 06:28 PM	#28
Andreas Johansson Regular Crew Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Stockholm Posts: 93	This is a ffmpeg on osx install howto. http://stephenjungels.com/jungels.ne...peg-howto.html