A comparison of the Sony EX1 and the Canon XL-H1

Steven Thomas · December 1st, 2007, 11:28 AM

Michael you are right about the HDLINK HD-SDi as 1080i60 with the progressive embedded with a 3:2 pulldown.

I was hoping there may be another solution short of buy a different monitor.
The JVC reference LCD does not show the jagged vertical motion artifacts.
But, I ran straight SDI out to the JVC; although, this should also be 1080i60 with the progressive embedded with a 3:2 pulldown.

The JVC LCD has faster response for interlace, or is it deinterlacing, I'm not sure?

Michael Rehfield · December 1st, 2007, 11:36 AM

I also checked out the camera at Abel in NYC yesterday and second Michael Galvan's observations. I tried an on-the-spot vignette test throughout the lens range and didn't see any dark corners on the monitor, but some reports say it can only be seen on playback.

On an off-topic note, they also had the soon-to-be-released Litepanels Micro on display, which runs off four double-A batteries. It's got a very small form factor, and if it's got sufficient throw for run & gun interviews and B-Cam work, it seems well worth the $330.

Steven Thomas · December 1st, 2007, 11:47 AM

You won't see it unless your monitor shows the overscan region.
Try SDI out for full raster.

Barlow Elton · December 1st, 2007, 12:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Michael Galvan

6. And of final note, the guys there confirmed that the HD-SDI is indeed 10-bit. Looks like capturing this thing to a 10-bit codec like ProRess 422 HQ with an AJA IO-HD would yield incredible results.

I love the parroting that salespeople and marketing reps do. These people don't do any testing at all. Sure, it's probably 10bit from a standards compatibility perspective, but I've tested the output with the Kona and the SheerVideo 10bit codec, (basically uncompressed 10bit) and it doesn't have the extra smooth gradations you would expect with true 10bit output. It looks just like the H1's output, which is quantized to 8bit and sent out with two bits set to zero.

Michael Galvan · December 1st, 2007, 01:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

I love the parroting that salespeople and marketing reps do. These people don't do any testing at all. Sure, it's probably 10bit from a standards compatibility perspective, but I've tested the output with the Kona and the SheerVideo 10bit codec, (basically uncompressed 10bit) and it doesn't have the extra smooth gradations you would expect with true 10bit output. It looks just like the H1's output, which is quantized to 8bit and sent out with two bits set to zero.

That's interesting, because I specifically pointed that out to them and asked them if the HD-SDI of the EX 1 does the same thing, but the sales guy (who's a cool guy there .. they're all cool and nice) went to ask their Sony rep and they confirmed it as true 10-bit.

Steven Thomas · December 1st, 2007, 01:30 PM

Well, based on what Barlow has said, I'm questioning it is filling all 10 bits.
If it's not showing as a benefit, it's probably filling only 8 bits.

Is there some sort of software that can extract the stream information and display if it's filling all 10 bits?

Greg Boston · December 1st, 2007, 01:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Barlow Elton

I've tested the output with the Kona and the SheerVideo 10bit codec, (basically uncompressed 10bit) and it doesn't have the extra smooth gradations you would expect with true 10bit output. It looks just like the H1's output, which is quantized to 8bit and sent out with two bits set to zero.

Good to know that you've done some definitive comparison, Barlow. This question was raised early on about the EX1's HDSDI pipe.

-gb-

Hayes Roberts · December 2nd, 2007, 04:49 PM

Sounds exciting Michael-we will be eager to hear of your findings. You had some really impressive footage from your H1 on your site- if you can top that, well....

Michael Galvan · December 3rd, 2007, 07:34 AM

Thank you Hayes ...

I'll try to see what I can do in terms of what I can record. There is a setup with a lot of colors, but everything will be mostly static.

Oleg Kalyan · December 3rd, 2007, 07:48 AM

Mike, do you have access to Canon manual 16x or 14x lens, if you do, please take same shots, from my testing 14x produces clearly better color, with more color contrast and similar resolution compared to the stock lens on H1.
Regards.

Michael Galvan · December 3rd, 2007, 10:05 AM

Hey ... sorry, currently I only have the 20x HD stock lens. Maybe they may have one for me to test ...

Thomas Smet · December 3rd, 2007, 11:32 AM

Barlow did you try to color correct the footage to see how much each version would band? They may in fact both look the same when looking at it straight on but it is when to push the CC to extreme levels where the 10bit would shine. Remember 10 bit video still has to display on your monitor as 8 bit.

Barlow Elton · December 3rd, 2007, 01:23 PM

No, I haven't had the time yet. Will give it a try but I did view it on a CRT VGA display and the video card supports 32 bit color.

Thomas Smet · December 3rd, 2007, 08:38 PM

That isn't 32 bits per channel but the total bits.

10 bit video has 30 bits total. If it had an alpha channel it would be 40 bits.

The 32 bits on computer monitors is 8 bits per RGB and Alpha. so it is only 24bits for the actual color or 8 bit per channel.

The video display graphics card is also a limiting factor here since they usually only work in a 8 bit color space. This is why having a HD-SDI based editing system and a good 10 bit HD monitor are so important.

Barlow Elton · December 4th, 2007, 10:30 AM

Yes, I would like to have a real 10 bit HD-SDI montior. I wil say that the banding was much less noticeable on the CRT, but when viewing higher bit depth photos on my LCD, the banding is still way less noticeable than a regual 8 bit pic. And btw, it wasn't bad banding at all, just something I'd expect from 8 bit video.

Thomas, do you have a way to view 10 bit video properly? I'd be happy to send you a couple clips to peruse.

December 3rd, 2007, 07:34 AM	#24
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Thank you Hayes ... I'll try to see what I can do in terms of what I can record. There is a setup with a lot of colors, but everything will be mostly static. __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

December 3rd, 2007, 10:05 AM	#26
Michael Galvan Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: New York, NY Posts: 775	Hey ... sorry, currently I only have the 20x HD stock lens. Maybe they may have one for me to test ... __________________ www.michaelgalvan.com www.screenanthology.com

December 1st, 2007, 11:28 AM	#16
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Michael you are right about the HDLINK HD-SDi as 1080i60 with the progressive embedded with a 3:2 pulldown. I was hoping there may be another solution short of buy a different monitor. The JVC reference LCD does not show the jagged vertical motion artifacts. But, I ran straight SDI out to the JVC; although, this should also be 1080i60 with the progressive embedded with a 3:2 pulldown. The JVC LCD has faster response for interlace, or is it deinterlacing, I'm not sure?

December 1st, 2007, 11:36 AM	#17
Michael Rehfield Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2007 Location: New York, New York Posts: 34	I also checked out the camera at Abel in NYC yesterday and second Michael Galvan's observations. I tried an on-the-spot vignette test throughout the lens range and didn't see any dark corners on the monitor, but some reports say it can only be seen on playback. On an off-topic note, they also had the soon-to-be-released Litepanels Micro on display, which runs off four double-A batteries. It's got a very small form factor, and if it's got sufficient throw for run & gun interviews and B-Cam work, it seems well worth the $330.

December 1st, 2007, 11:47 AM	#18
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	You won't see it unless your monitor shows the overscan region. Try SDI out for full raster.

December 1st, 2007, 01:30 PM	#21
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Well, based on what Barlow has said, I'm questioning it is filling all 10 bits. If it's not showing as a benefit, it's probably filling only 8 bits. Is there some sort of software that can extract the stream information and display if it's filling all 10 bits?

December 2nd, 2007, 04:49 PM	#23
Hayes Roberts Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: Naples FLA Posts: 89	Sounds exciting Michael-we will be eager to hear of your findings. You had some really impressive footage from your H1 on your site- if you can top that, well....

December 3rd, 2007, 07:48 AM	#25
Oleg Kalyan Major Player Join Date: Apr 2006 Location: MOSCOW Posts: 860	Mike, do you have access to Canon manual 16x or 14x lens, if you do, please take same shots, from my testing 14x produces clearly better color, with more color contrast and similar resolution compared to the stock lens on H1. Regards.

December 3rd, 2007, 11:32 AM	#27
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	Barlow did you try to color correct the footage to see how much each version would band? They may in fact both look the same when looking at it straight on but it is when to push the CC to extreme levels where the 10bit would shine. Remember 10 bit video still has to display on your monitor as 8 bit.

December 3rd, 2007, 01:23 PM	#28
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	No, I haven't had the time yet. Will give it a try but I did view it on a CRT VGA display and the video card supports 32 bit color.

December 3rd, 2007, 08:38 PM	#29
Thomas Smet Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: Milwaukee, WI Posts: 1,719	That isn't 32 bits per channel but the total bits. 10 bit video has 30 bits total. If it had an alpha channel it would be 40 bits. The 32 bits on computer monitors is 8 bits per RGB and Alpha. so it is only 24bits for the actual color or 8 bit per channel. The video display graphics card is also a limiting factor here since they usually only work in a 8 bit color space. This is why having a HD-SDI based editing system and a good 10 bit HD monitor are so important.

December 4th, 2007, 10:30 AM	#30
Barlow Elton Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: UT Posts: 945	Yes, I would like to have a real 10 bit HD-SDI montior. I wil say that the banding was much less noticeable on the CRT, but when viewing higher bit depth photos on my LCD, the banding is still way less noticeable than a regual 8 bit pic. And btw, it wasn't bad banding at all, just something I'd expect from 8 bit video. Thomas, do you have a way to view 10 bit video properly? I'd be happy to send you a couple clips to peruse.