Vignette problem

Vince Gaffney · November 29th, 2007, 09:48 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

We'll often refer to "shallow depth of field" but when we say"shallow focus" or "deep focus" I can assure you we are referring to the distance that the lens is set at and not the resultant DoF.

Interesting. In my 25 years art directing and directing commercials all I ever ask for is a "deep stop" or WFO. Must be a geographical thing.

vince

Richard Alvarez · November 29th, 2007, 09:57 AM

I think it might be a geographical terminology issue. My experience is "Deep or shallow focus" refers to depth of field. Long or short refers to distance for the focus. "Your focus is long. Your forcus is short." "I want a deep focus on this..." is the corresponding t-stop for the deepest depth of field on the subject.

"Close focus" an "Far focus" are not heard as often. "At the long end, or short end" of the lens is heard more often.

Eric Pascarelli · November 29th, 2007, 10:00 AM

Film terminology, and especially on-set jargon, is very regional, and in my opinion, clubby and exclusionary, but I guess it does provide a useful shorthand that probably makes production at least 1% more efficient.

Film production is a tribal thing, if you think about it, with crews that work together often developing their own weird vernacular.

But I think WFO is universal!

(Come to think of it, we'll often say "wuf" when we mean WFO)

Steven Thomas · November 29th, 2007, 10:17 AM

Please let's not derail this thread on semantics.
Sony techs were refered to this thread.

I'm a bit bummed with this problem and feel like I'm stuck in a waiting game.
I just received this camera yesterday anticpating I could learn it fast enough for upcoming event work.

So the way I see it I have several paths.

1. Wait for Sony's response to this issue and how they plan on handling it.
The real question is how long? I imagine long enough so the dealer will
not honor a return.

2. Return this camera for replacement (Based on the odds here, I'll probably receive another with the vignetting issue). Also, the likelihood of them having stock is not good, to say the least.

3. Return the camera until I hear they actually fixed the EX1 issue, then repurchase. This could take three to six months. I'm not sure about this one.

4. Return and call it quits for the EX1.

Brian Drysdale · November 29th, 2007, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

Film terminology, and especially on-set jargon, is very regional, and in my opinion, clubby and exclusionary, but I guess it does provide a useful shorthand that probably makes production at least 1% more efficient.

Film production is a tribal thing, if you think about it, with crews that work together often developing their own weird vernacular.

But I think WFO is universal!

You do get in camera crew jokes that are regional like rhyming slang. However, equipment and techniques tend to be at least national, if not international in the English speaking world. That's not to say that you don't get the odd quirky national name for a piece of kit, in that regard it's no different to any other industry. However, like any other terminology it's easily picked up.

Terms like deep focus are international, especially since there has been so much written about the subject over the years.

Richard Alvarez · November 29th, 2007, 10:21 AM

Whats the window of opportunity for a return for full refund? Seems like that's the driving force behind the decision tree. I wouldn't expect Sony to make a public comment for another week at the earliest.

Paul Joy · November 29th, 2007, 10:35 AM

I'm glad I opted to return mine as I wouldn't want to be holding on to a camera with the problem whilst waiting to find out Sony's position on fixing it.

If they announce a fix then that's great, but they could also decide that it's inherent with this model and within tolerances, then it just becomes part of the purchasing choice we have to make.

Personally, I wouldn't have the camera with this problem, others though have said they can live with it.

Vince Gaffney · November 29th, 2007, 10:36 AM

removed by user

Paul Joy · November 29th, 2007, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Vince Gaffney

I love all this stuff.

I agree with Steven, can we please not dilute and derail this thread as it could be an important factor in Sony understanding the problems some of us are facing.

Thanks

Paul.

Edit: Thanks for your understanding Vince, much appreciated.

Brian Drysdale · November 29th, 2007, 11:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Joy

I agree with Steven, can we please not dilute and derail this thread as it could be an important factor in Sony understanding the problems some of us are facing.

Thanks

Paul.

If you've got problems with your cameras, you should contact Sony. Even if you can live with it for the moment, send Sony a letter stating the situation and asking that they send you a new unit once they've sorted their QC problems. If you don't, Sony can say that it affects less cameras than is really the case and won't address the issue.

I know some other manufacturers have been good in this regard, but you can't depend on Sony reading threads in forums.

Craig Seeman · November 29th, 2007, 11:16 AM

I think someone needs to post a step by step testing procedure for this issue. It should be clear and precise. It should be something like set camera to X record mode, x F stop, x Zoom setting, point towards solid colored object keeping peaks under 100% and slow zoom through, Try OIS on/off, etc. I'm not sure what the procedure should be but this will all give us a near uniform test. I'm sure that'll help Sony.

We should probably upload screen grabs or video clips (Chris Hurd would this be a viable idea)?

It'll be hard enough for Sony dealing with verbal descriptions on phone calls and scouring through pages of posts on forums. The more we can consolidate and document the better it'll be for them.

I think the above will help Sony trouble shoot this.
________________________
Sony will HAVE to say something to somebody IF they acknowledge the issue. They HAVE to be aware of that. If they're forthright and responsive it will go along way in showing they're a company that stands behind their pro gear.

_______________________
One of the things I do professionally is provide QA and trouble shooting for a company that makes video/media related products so I can imagine what internal stuff Sony is going through.

Let's offer to help them trouble shoot this, request a proactive response from Sony so they can demonstrate professional customer satisfaction, let's NOT react by disparaging them.

Steven Thomas · November 29th, 2007, 11:48 AM

Something's going on with the optical path. Oddly the path is tightest between 10mm through 25mm focal length?

Some cameras have the vignette centered showing in all forur cameras. Some are weighted more to one side than the other. Mines weighted more to the right, but does show in all four corners.

Steven Thomas · November 29th, 2007, 12:07 PM

Here's a general setup to determine if your PMW-EX1 camera has the vignette issue:

1. Set the EX1 for FULL manual control.

2. Set the cameras focus at infinity. (furthest focus range).

3. Position your camera on a tripod with "Steady Shot" OFF (OIS OFF).

4. Aim your camera on a white or neutral color wall (not black).

5. Start with camera at full wide (5.8mm) and zoom all the way in and verify
no objects come into your view throughout the zoom travel.

6. Do not over expose the image. Actually intentionally under expose the
image.

7. Now with your camera set to wide 5.8mm focal length, start recording.

8. While recording SLOWLY zoom up to 40mm. The problem is known to be
seen in the 10mm - 25mm range. So SLOWY zoom through this focal
range.

9. Import your footage into your computer and look for the vignetting issue.
IMPORTANT: When viewed on a monitor while recording, you may not see
the issue due to the monitors overscan. View your capture footage on your computer.

Chris Hurd · November 29th, 2007, 12:54 PM

Thanks Steven -- I've copied your how-to post in a new thread here:

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109119

Directing replies back to this thread. Greater visibility that way.

Steven Thomas · November 29th, 2007, 02:13 PM

I just got off with the Sony Techs. They are currently performing this test on an EX1 in house. It's possible that their camera does not have this issue.

At this present time, they have had three others calls in with this issue.
Of course, that's not to say it's no more wide spread.
Based on the number of cameras here, this issue sure gives the impression the percentage of cameras that have this problem is VERY large.

November 29th, 2007, 10:35 AM	#187
Paul Joy Major Player Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Norfolk, UK Posts: 627	I'm glad I opted to return mine as I wouldn't want to be holding on to a camera with the problem whilst waiting to find out Sony's position on fixing it. If they announce a fix then that's great, but they could also decide that it's inherent with this model and within tolerances, then it just becomes part of the purchasing choice we have to make. Personally, I wouldn't have the camera with this problem, others though have said they can live with it. __________________ Blog: www.pauljoy.com Company: www.videotrader.co.uk

November 29th, 2007, 11:16 AM	#191
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	How can we help Sony verify and resolve this I think someone needs to post a step by step testing procedure for this issue. It should be clear and precise. It should be something like set camera to X record mode, x F stop, x Zoom setting, point towards solid colored object keeping peaks under 100% and slow zoom through, Try OIS on/off, etc. I'm not sure what the procedure should be but this will all give us a near uniform test. I'm sure that'll help Sony. We should probably upload screen grabs or video clips (Chris Hurd would this be a viable idea)? It'll be hard enough for Sony dealing with verbal descriptions on phone calls and scouring through pages of posts on forums. The more we can consolidate and document the better it'll be for them. I think the above will help Sony trouble shoot this. ________________________ Sony will HAVE to say something to somebody IF they acknowledge the issue. They HAVE to be aware of that. If they're forthright and responsive it will go along way in showing they're a company that stands behind their pro gear. _______________________ One of the things I do professionally is provide QA and trouble shooting for a company that makes video/media related products so I can imagine what internal stuff Sony is going through. Let's offer to help them trouble shoot this, request a proactive response from Sony so they can demonstrate professional customer satisfaction, let's NOT react by disparaging them.

November 29th, 2007, 12:54 PM	#194
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Thanks Steven -- I've copied your how-to post in a new thread here: http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=109119 Directing replies back to this thread. Greater visibility that way. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

November 29th, 2007, 09:57 AM	#182
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	I think it might be a geographical terminology issue. My experience is "Deep or shallow focus" refers to depth of field. Long or short refers to distance for the focus. "Your focus is long. Your forcus is short." "I want a deep focus on this..." is the corresponding t-stop for the deepest depth of field on the subject. "Close focus" an "Far focus" are not heard as often. "At the long end, or short end" of the lens is heard more often.

November 29th, 2007, 10:00 AM	#183
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	Film terminology, and especially on-set jargon, is very regional, and in my opinion, clubby and exclusionary, but I guess it does provide a useful shorthand that probably makes production at least 1% more efficient. Film production is a tribal thing, if you think about it, with crews that work together often developing their own weird vernacular. But I think WFO is universal! (Come to think of it, we'll often say "wuf" when we mean WFO)

November 29th, 2007, 10:17 AM	#184
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Please let's not derail this thread on semantics. Sony techs were refered to this thread. I'm a bit bummed with this problem and feel like I'm stuck in a waiting game. I just received this camera yesterday anticpating I could learn it fast enough for upcoming event work. So the way I see it I have several paths. 1. Wait for Sony's response to this issue and how they plan on handling it. The real question is how long? I imagine long enough so the dealer will not honor a return. 2. Return this camera for replacement (Based on the odds here, I'll probably receive another with the vignetting issue). Also, the likelihood of them having stock is not good, to say the least. 3. Return the camera until I hear they actually fixed the EX1 issue, then repurchase. This could take three to six months. I'm not sure about this one. 4. Return and call it quits for the EX1.

November 29th, 2007, 10:21 AM	#186
Richard Alvarez Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: San Mateo, CA Posts: 3,840	Whats the window of opportunity for a return for full refund? Seems like that's the driving force behind the decision tree. I wouldn't expect Sony to make a public comment for another week at the earliest.

November 29th, 2007, 10:36 AM	#188
Vince Gaffney Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 146	removed by user

November 29th, 2007, 11:48 AM	#192
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Something's going on with the optical path. Oddly the path is tightest between 10mm through 25mm focal length? Some cameras have the vignette centered showing in all forur cameras. Some are weighted more to one side than the other. Mines weighted more to the right, but does show in all four corners.

November 29th, 2007, 12:07 PM	#193
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Here's a general setup to determine if your PMW-EX1 camera has the vignette issue: 1. Set the EX1 for FULL manual control. 2. Set the cameras focus at infinity. (furthest focus range). 3. Position your camera on a tripod with "Steady Shot" OFF (OIS OFF). 4. Aim your camera on a white or neutral color wall (not black). 5. Start with camera at full wide (5.8mm) and zoom all the way in and verify no objects come into your view throughout the zoom travel. 6. Do not over expose the image. Actually intentionally under expose the image. 7. Now with your camera set to wide 5.8mm focal length, start recording. 8. While recording SLOWLY zoom up to 40mm. The problem is known to be seen in the 10mm - 25mm range. So SLOWY zoom through this focal range. 9. Import your footage into your computer and look for the vignetting issue. IMPORTANT: When viewed on a monitor while recording, you may not see the issue due to the monitors overscan. View your capture footage on your computer.

November 29th, 2007, 02:13 PM	#195
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	I just got off with the Sony Techs. They are currently performing this test on an EX1 in house. It's possible that their camera does not have this issue. At this present time, they have had three others calls in with this issue. Of course, that's not to say it's no more wide spread. Based on the number of cameras here, this issue sure gives the impression the percentage of cameras that have this problem is VERY large.