Vignette problem

Steven Thomas · November 28th, 2007, 10:09 PM

That's fairly normal, it's barrel distortion. You were probably set to full wide 5.8. If you had zoomed in a tad it would of been better.

When I say normal, ideally it would be nice to have no barrel distortion at full wide, but a lot of lenses, even ones that cost more can have a small amount of barrel distortion.

Also, i'm not sure how you captured that frame, but you may want to choose deinterlace (blend) before your screen capture.
I see your post was an interlace capture.

Eric Pascarelli · November 29th, 2007, 12:35 AM

Carroll,

Deep focus = far, at or approaching infinity

Shallow focus = near, at or approaching minimum

Graham Bernard · November 29th, 2007, 01:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

Could someone who can view Mac created mov files please check this out and see how bad the vignetting shows itsef. Carol said you really have to look to see it. Unfortunately, I have a PC. MAybe perform a screen capture during its worse section.

http://www.clamcamvideo.com/CLAM0004_01_1.mov

Steve? I've downloaded your MOV, and I can not view it through QT? I've got the latest QT installed on my PC, I can play other MOV files without an issue. I can "hear" your file, but the visuals aren't appearing. Same for VLC player too.

Grazie

Tom Hardwick · November 29th, 2007, 02:46 AM

Jason, I think you're right to hold off. Early adopters of the PD170, the JVC101, the Ford Pinto and numerous other examples show that early adopters pay the price, and invariably end up doing the final prototype testing.

It's nothing against the manufacturers, if they waited till every production bug was sorted before releasing a new product we'd still be shooting onto VHS.

tom.

Christopher Witz · November 29th, 2007, 07:04 AM

now lets get one thing straight.... it was only the pinto wagon ( estate for you brits ) that had the exploding fuel tank problem..... hehe

I guess there might be some satisfaction in owning something that can be fixed with firmware..... the vignette issue is another issue.

Just a thought.... is it possible that it's a ND filter hanging on the outer edge? or does the EX1 not have the ND filter flags like the Z1?

Tom Hardwick · November 29th, 2007, 07:25 AM

Internal NDs are way, way out of focus, so I'm much more swayed by the thought that it's a tolerance build-up that puts the chip centrelines very slightly off axis. Unlike wide-aperture lens vignetting (where it's not uncommon to have the frame edges 1.5 stops down on the centre) this shows a mechanical problem such as I've just described.

tom.

Stelios Christofides · November 29th, 2007, 07:44 AM

Guys have you tried the same set up with any other of your cameras?
Did you have any Vignette problem with other models?

Stelios

Christopher Witz · November 29th, 2007, 07:44 AM

so basically, the lens's image circle is not quite big enough for the chip with the manufacturing tolerance sony has with this cam out of their prestigious cinealta factory? Maybe a miscommunication between fuji and sony on specs?

I do trust that to have a lens do all the magical things this fujinon lens can do... and not have any issues.... is remarkable.

Personally... I'd take a little vignette over softness at one end of the zoom range or the other any day. Heck.... I tend to add a little vignette in post to most things anyways. But.... if I were shooting something critical like paintings or a product on a white cove I'd be a bit bothered. Then again.... I guess an layer in post could overcome the problem with the white cove issue.

Is it just me, or does there seem to be a conspirasy with manufacturers to give us a reason to always feel the next price point of product in there line will fix the problems of the one below it? Almost as if they create a perfect product and then take something away and lower it's price.

sorry for the ramble.... latte kicking in

Craig Seeman · November 29th, 2007, 07:56 AM

I guess this thread can go on for weeks as the back orders are filled and we post our findings.

Now we have to ask the tough questions which none of us here can answer (only Sony).

What will Sony do to fix this (they've gotta know if its widespread it's gonna be a bear)?

Will each user be left to do their own QC to determine what's "acceptable" or will Sony simply repair the cameras regardless of degree of vignetting?

Are those waiting for their pre orders to be fulfilled simply waiting for bum cameras that will need to be turned back in for repair?

What happens if you spot the issue months after receiving the camera?

No need for you folks to answer this. WE need to hear from Sony.

My only comment will be, if it's firmware it'll be relatively painless. If it's hardware there's going to be a lot of shipping back and forth along with repairs and follow up QC. I'd hope Sony is looking at the production line and dealing with it there if it's hardware. I'd rather wait a few more weeks and get a good camera then go through the process of receiving, doing my own QC and sending back.

Now we need to hear from Sony.

Steven Thomas · November 29th, 2007, 08:35 AM

This is Sony's CineAlta professional camera division. I can't imagine Sony will drag their feet with this issue.

I believe the CineAlta division takes great pride in the highend cameras.

Based on the few cameras we've received here, and the amount of known problem cameras, this is going to be real large.

Craig Seeman · November 29th, 2007, 08:50 AM

Yes, but now the whole thing becomes a business issue which we have to wait to hear from Sony.

The more cameras that ship the more Sony will have to deal with shipping back and repair (unless it's a firmware issue).

For all we know, they may be dealing with it now which is why people are hearing next batches in a couple of weeks rather than a constant output.

The more cameras that get out there the worse the public relations issue becomes. Companies fix and survive these though. Remember the JVC 100 "split screen."

The unanswerable question is, given what has be quantified (and QC'd) by the users on this forum, when and how will Sony act.

Sony must have been aware of this as per Adam Wilt's article so one might also question why the issue persists in the production release. Alas another unanswerable question. I guess the concern is if they were aware of it then how did it get to this stage in release? THAT doesn't instill confidence.

Personally I don't look forward to getting a camera with an issue in two weeks and I don't look forward to having to PROVE to Sony it's an issue regardless of how sever or mild.

I think Sony has a narrow window to fix this. But again maybe they are already given the delays in the next batch.

My wish now is that Sony speak with either words or actions. I dearly you are correct in your assessment Steven.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steven Thomas

This is Sony's CineAlta professional camera division. I can't imagine Sony will drag their feet with this issue.

I believe the CineAlta division takes great pride in the highend cameras.

Based on the few cameras we've received here, and the amount of known problem cameras, this is going to be real large.

Carroll Lam · November 29th, 2007, 08:59 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

Carroll,

Deep focus = far, at or approaching infinity

Shallow focus = near, at or approaching minimum

Thanks, Eric. The sky clip I posted was manually focused at infinity but the iris was at about mid-range. I'll attempt to setup a situation of full-open aperture to repeat the test.

Carroll Lam

Steven Thomas · November 29th, 2007, 09:03 AM

Thanks Carol.
We're looking forward to your results.

Brian Drysdale · November 29th, 2007, 09:19 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Eric Pascarelli

Carroll,

Deep focus = far, at or approaching infinity

Shallow focus = near, at or approaching minimum

In cinematography "deep focus" refers to a large depth of field. The best known example is Citizen Kane, but DOP Gregg Toland also used deep focus in other films.

Shallow focus is opposite, a small depth of field: currently fashionable using wide aperture lenses shooting on 35mm or using 35mm adapters on video cameras.

It's quite possible to have a shallow focus on a far subject with the closer objects soft, or a deep focus on a near subject with everything sharp from the subject to infinity.

Eric Pascarelli · November 29th, 2007, 09:39 AM

Brian,

Perhaps in the language of cinema critique, and/or perhaps in the UK.

But I can assure you that on the US film sets I've been working on for the past 20 years, the terminology I use is common.

"Shallow" is perhaps less often used than "close focus."

We'll often refer to "shallow depth of field" but when we say"shallow focus" or "deep focus" I can assure you we are referring to the distance that the lens is set at and not the resultant DoF.

November 29th, 2007, 07:44 AM	#172
Stelios Christofides Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Nicosia, CYPRUS Posts: 1,080	Guys have you tried the same set up with any other of your cameras? Did you have any Vignette problem with other models? Stelios __________________ My Blog: http://steliosc.blogspot.com "I hope for nothing, I fear nothing, I am free" Nikos Kazantzakis

November 29th, 2007, 07:56 AM	#174
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	What happens next? I guess this thread can go on for weeks as the back orders are filled and we post our findings. Now we have to ask the tough questions which none of us here can answer (only Sony). What will Sony do to fix this (they've gotta know if its widespread it's gonna be a bear)? Will each user be left to do their own QC to determine what's "acceptable" or will Sony simply repair the cameras regardless of degree of vignetting? Are those waiting for their pre orders to be fulfilled simply waiting for bum cameras that will need to be turned back in for repair? What happens if you spot the issue months after receiving the camera? No need for you folks to answer this. WE need to hear from Sony. My only comment will be, if it's firmware it'll be relatively painless. If it's hardware there's going to be a lot of shipping back and forth along with repairs and follow up QC. I'd hope Sony is looking at the production line and dealing with it there if it's hardware. I'd rather wait a few more weeks and get a good camera then go through the process of receiving, doing my own QC and sending back. Now we need to hear from Sony.

November 28th, 2007, 10:09 PM	#166
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	That's fairly normal, it's barrel distortion. You were probably set to full wide 5.8. If you had zoomed in a tad it would of been better. When I say normal, ideally it would be nice to have no barrel distortion at full wide, but a lot of lenses, even ones that cost more can have a small amount of barrel distortion. Also, i'm not sure how you captured that frame, but you may want to choose deinterlace (blend) before your screen capture. I see your post was an interlace capture.

November 29th, 2007, 12:35 AM	#167
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	Carroll, Deep focus = far, at or approaching infinity Shallow focus = near, at or approaching minimum

November 29th, 2007, 02:46 AM	#169
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Jason, I think you're right to hold off. Early adopters of the PD170, the JVC101, the Ford Pinto and numerous other examples show that early adopters pay the price, and invariably end up doing the final prototype testing. It's nothing against the manufacturers, if they waited till every production bug was sorted before releasing a new product we'd still be shooting onto VHS. tom.

November 29th, 2007, 07:04 AM	#170
Christopher Witz Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 591	now lets get one thing straight.... it was only the pinto wagon ( estate for you brits ) that had the exploding fuel tank problem..... hehe I guess there might be some satisfaction in owning something that can be fixed with firmware..... the vignette issue is another issue. Just a thought.... is it possible that it's a ND filter hanging on the outer edge? or does the EX1 not have the ND filter flags like the Z1?

November 29th, 2007, 07:25 AM	#171
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Internal NDs are way, way out of focus, so I'm much more swayed by the thought that it's a tolerance build-up that puts the chip centrelines very slightly off axis. Unlike wide-aperture lens vignetting (where it's not uncommon to have the frame edges 1.5 stops down on the centre) this shows a mechanical problem such as I've just described. tom.

November 29th, 2007, 07:44 AM	#173
Christopher Witz Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Louisville, KY Posts: 591	so basically, the lens's image circle is not quite big enough for the chip with the manufacturing tolerance sony has with this cam out of their prestigious cinealta factory? Maybe a miscommunication between fuji and sony on specs? I do trust that to have a lens do all the magical things this fujinon lens can do... and not have any issues.... is remarkable. Personally... I'd take a little vignette over softness at one end of the zoom range or the other any day. Heck.... I tend to add a little vignette in post to most things anyways. But.... if I were shooting something critical like paintings or a product on a white cove I'd be a bit bothered. Then again.... I guess an layer in post could overcome the problem with the white cove issue. Is it just me, or does there seem to be a conspirasy with manufacturers to give us a reason to always feel the next price point of product in there line will fix the problems of the one below it? Almost as if they create a perfect product and then take something away and lower it's price. sorry for the ramble.... latte kicking in

November 29th, 2007, 08:35 AM	#175
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	This is Sony's CineAlta professional camera division. I can't imagine Sony will drag their feet with this issue. I believe the CineAlta division takes great pride in the highend cameras. Based on the few cameras we've received here, and the amount of known problem cameras, this is going to be real large.

November 29th, 2007, 09:03 AM	#178
Steven Thomas Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Location: Gilbert, AZ Posts: 1,896	Thanks Carol. We're looking forward to your results.

November 29th, 2007, 09:39 AM	#180
Eric Pascarelli Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 498	Brian, Perhaps in the language of cinema critique, and/or perhaps in the UK. But I can assure you that on the US film sets I've been working on for the past 20 years, the terminology I use is common. "Shallow" is perhaps less often used than "close focus." We'll often refer to "shallow depth of field" but when we say"shallow focus" or "deep focus" I can assure you we are referring to the distance that the lens is set at and not the resultant DoF.