EX and HVX200

[Jason Bodnar]

OK, I am just looking for some input from everyone...I ran into a guy who was rattling off some info regarding how much better the HVX is for shooting fast motion and action sports becuase of the Intra Frame. He said (and I have heard this before) that Long GOP is prone having issues with action sports and fast motion. Now I have been shooting SD forever and have moved to HDV as well and unless I am extrememly careful I do see issues with the FX1 and HDV with Fast motion. However, I would think that with the EX and variable Bit Rate at 35 HQ it would have an advantage over the HVX even in respects to shooting fast motion and Action sports. besides all the obvious 1/2 sensors, 1920, etc. Any advice would be greatly appreciated as I am still wanting the EX especially as I move toward indie film and documentary realm.

Thanks!

Jason

[Gabe Strong]

Well, anyone that tells you really doesn't know what he is talking about, first and foremost because...THE CAMERA HASN'T BEEN RELEASED YET! So really, kind of hard for him to tell you the HVX is better. The EX will probably have similar video to the 350 but it has different specs......1920x1080 instead of 1440x1080 as well as CMOS instead of CCD's. And all the reviews of pre release versions of this camera that I have read about (Like Simon's) are very, very positive. I personally think this will do just fine vs. the HVX as it has bigger chips and a real lens......as well as native 1920x1080 instead of the pixel shifting the HVX has.....BUT THAT IS JUST SPECULATION!! Wait until it comes out and find out what people think that bought it....let others be the early adaptors if possible.....then you benefit from their experience.
:-)

[Chris Hurd]

Originally Posted by Gabe Strong

instead of the pixel shifting the HVX has...

All three-chip camcorders (with rare exceptions) have Pixel Shift. This is not a bad thing. It's a very good thing. Pixel Shift is highly beneficial. Please don't misconstrue it as a negative. Thanks in advance,

[Jason Bodnar]

The person I spoke with did not say the HVX was better than the EX...He just said that the HVX Intra Frame was better than Long GOP for fast motion (Action Sports) This is the Myth that I am trying to verify. I know we won't know how the EX truely works until it ships and people start to use it and so I am going towait for others reviews of the productions model even though it sounds like it is going to be my choice for a Camera. However, is the Intra Frame on the HVX200 better than current models that use Long GOP for fast motion filming (action Sports)? Like say the Z1 or even F355 since they use Long GOP. Simon, if you see this maybe you can chime in on how the preproduction EX was with fast motion...

[Jeff Heywood]

I can't say what the EX will be like with xdcam EX, but I can tell you long GOP with the Z1 is an absolute nightmare with fast action, high detail.

If things aren't moving around much, the Z1 and its codec produce a nice picture. Shoot a forest, across water, on a sunny day with the wind blowing and you'll see just how awful HDV can be.

So if you're swinging an HDV cam around a lot in a high detail area, you're doomed.

The different codec for the EX is supposed to eliminate this problem, but no one knows until you get it out in the field. Personally, being burned with the Z1, makes me suspicious of any long GOP.

[Jason Bodnar]

I hear you Jeff, I bought the FX1 when it first came out and once I saw the results of fast movement I was not very happy (which kept me from buying a Z1). Yes HDV looks great when static or slow moving. My hope is with this new camera (the EX) it will be what I have been waiting for but I guess I will have to wait and see what the real reviews show once people get them.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

All three-chip camcorders (with rare exceptions) have Pixel Shift. This is not a bad thing. It's a very good thing. Pixel Shift is highly beneficial. Please don't misconstrue it as a negative. Thanks in advance,

Chris, I know you believe this. But there is a huge difference been a camera that uses pixel-shift to TRY to get enough pixels to fill the recording format -- and one that has has enough pixels to meet the needs of the recording format and uses pixel-shift to gain about 15% more pre-recording samples.

The former is a camera that "under-samples" and the latter is a camera that "over-samples." You'll notice that the company that under-samples now does not specify the resolution of the CCDs they use. Instead, they spec. the size of the CCDs they use. While there are advantages to a large chip -- there is simply no way an SD CCD can yield the same recorded resolution as can a 1920x1080 chip. No amount of pixel-shift can create pixels that are not there.

And, interestingly -- the company that claims pixel-shift works also claims long-GOP doesn't. They are wrong on both counts and it's critical that folks know this.

[Dom Stevenson]

Jason,
I spent a lot of time on final cut pro users groups before i bought the Canon A1 HDV camcorder. Pretty much everyone tried to put me off buying an HDV cam due to the long GOP issues with motion. The HVX was considered the only cam in town. I ignored their advice because i couldn't justify the switch to P2 and the extortionate price of the things in relation to the shooting time they offered. Generally speaking i'm very happy because the A1 is a lovely camera but i have noticed motion issues with pans and tilts at times. It's definitely better than the Z1 though, as i did a 2 camera shoot a while back and the Canon is far superior in my opinion.
Anyway i'm rambling here because as other posters have pointed out we're not sure what the new Sony will be like, but i think that if its resolved the motion issues, it will leave the HVX far behind.
Also, i wonder what the other companies like canon & JVC etc will be doing to compete with the Sony and PANASONIC solid state cameras. Any ideas?

[Mike Marriage]

I spoke to a JVC rep a few weeks ago who said that they were playing a waiting game.

He hinted at solid state, possibly CF or SxS but said he had no solid info himself. So nothing for a while.

I think JVC still has an excellent form factor with the HD100/200 series. I'd love to see it developed... and a little more reliable!

[Craig Seeman]

The EX1 is the rare exception. No Pixel Shift.

At NY ProTech Expo earlier this weeks AbelCine had examples of video they shot with the EX1 they now have. The showed examples of shots that would have broken HDV but were find in XDCAM 35mbps. They said they had not been able to break the codec. Fast motion can certainly be action sports but rippling water, swaying leaves or grass are also examples of fast action that can break HDV but hold up at 35mbps XDCAM.

BTW Jason, I wouldn't go near an HDV camera (for my uses anyway) and I'm buying the EX1. I'm not going to say it's impossible to break the codec but I haven't seen it yet.

Last night Sony was showing off the workflow specifically at the "MoPic" meeting. The clips they were using had some "challenging" material in it that would have been just a mess with HDV. Of course Sony's going to show the camera in "its best light" but there are some problems you just can't hide.

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

All three-chip camcorders (with rare exceptions) have Pixel Shift. This is not a bad thing. It's a very good thing. Pixel Shift is highly beneficial. Please don't misconstrue it as a negative. Thanks in advance,

[John Bosco Jr.]

Originally Posted by Jason Bodnar

The person I spoke with did not say the HVX was better than the EX...He just said that the HVX Intra Frame was better than Long GOP for fast motion (Action Sports) This is the Myth that I am trying to verify. I know we won't know how the EX truely works until it ships and people start to use it and so I am going towait for others reviews of the productions model even though it sounds like it is going to be my choice for a Camera. However, is the Intra Frame on the HVX200 better than current models that use Long GOP for fast motion filming (action Sports)? Like say the Z1 or even F355 since they use Long GOP. Simon, if you see this maybe you can chime in on how the preproduction EX was with fast motion...

Based on just fast motion, the HVX is going to handle it better than the EX 1 for a couple of reasons: 1. DVCProHD codec handles motion better than a long GOP mpeg 2 codec. 2. The EX 1 employs a rolling shutter that has been known to have fits with fast motion.

Gosh it continues to go back to what your uses are. If you're shooting mainly sports, then the HVX 200 might be a better choice; although, I've heard that the JVC prohd and Canon xh models handle sports fairly well also. If most of your shooting is normal or in lowlight conditions, then the EX 1 looks like the champion.

Of course, my comments are based on speculation. To be fair, the camera has to come out, and we have to see video from it. I don't think Panasonic expects the HVX 200 to compete with the EX 1. I'm sure they're coming up with a new model based on their AVC-intra codec. You also have to remember that the HVX 200 is three years old. When you look at it that way, that's fairly amazing that it can still be talked about as a competitor to the EX 1.

[Alan Waters]

So does anyone have an answer to the Sports/fast motion query that was posed then?

So Craig says it doesn't and John says it does?
Where is Tom, dick and Harry when you need them?

Seriously you'd think that a camera like the EX1 would handle anything thrown at it.
Buying a Canon 5D is reccomended for people photographing weddings whereas people taking general shots can go for Canon 20/30/40D.

big difference between stocking up on camera bodies at 1,500 to 2,000 and camcorders for 6-8k though.

[John Bosco Jr.]

Originally Posted by Alan Waters

So does anyone have an answer to the Sports/fast motion query that was posed then?

Yes. As I mentioned in my above comment, the HVX 200 will handle fast motion better than the EX 1 based on the cameras' specs.

[Craig Seeman]

I've now seen the camera 3 or 4 times, handled it for a bit, seen video shot by it from both Sony and AbelCine. It will handle fast motion. It will be much harder to get it to exhibit skewing (rolling shutter) then you're assuming. There's an AD converter for each column of pixels (top to bottom) for example (so Sony says). Both Sony and Abel have addressed these issues in the presentations I saw. This camera is NOT the Sony V1 or only a slightly better version.

[Craig Seeman]

There's more going on in the camera than specs and there are things Sony has done in the engineering that make a big difference. By the way, there's plenty F330/350 video out there as proof.

While the Iditarod isn't a football game it was shot with F350 (XDCAM 35mbps) and many of the shots that could have broken the codec, didn't. If what you say were true, shooting fast action at 720p60 slowed to 24p would be a nightmare. It's not. That's not to say the codec can't be broken but I imagine you'd have to push it to an extreme.

Originally Posted by John Bosco Jr.

Yes. As I mentioned in my above comment, the HVX 200 will handle fast motion better than the EX 1 based on the cameras' specs.