So why do you want a Sony XDCAM EX ?

Paul Izbicki · September 19th, 2007, 03:33 PM

One of the things I am stoked about is that ALL imaging uses the full 1920 x 1080 sensor array. Then, for 720p, the images are downrezzed. This COULD result in a high level of sensitivity in recording under low lux in this mode.

The bitmap luminance level of the full 1/2" array, already anticipated to be quite sensitive, can be sampled for the smaller number of pixels contained in the 720 image. This MIGHT mean a higher degree of sensitivity in 720p, a very useful feature.

Just thinking out loud. Not every client or situation needs the very highest resolution. A clean documentation of corporate presenters without the need for additional podium lighting, in eg.

Joe Lawry · September 19th, 2007, 03:46 PM

1st of October and Kiwis who havent been to nab,ibc or smpte will finally get to the see the camera, myself included. As much as i dont like mpeg based codecs.. and the lack of sd.. that real lens might sway me. Although from what i've seen it aint going to come in cheap. Couple more k and i could buy a HPX500 body.

Steven Thomas · September 19th, 2007, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Paul Izbicki

The bitmap luminance level of the full 1/2" array, already anticipated to be quite sensitive, can be sampled for the smaller number of pixels contained in the 720 image. This MIGHT mean a higher degree of sensitivity in 720p, a very useful feature.

Hmmm..
Good point. I have not thought about that possibility. Any more thoughts on this?

Peter Corbett · September 19th, 2007, 10:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

P2 is doomed and DVCProHD may not be far behind it, so Panasonic's future moves will likely be based on AVC encoding. We've already seen this with their little 3-chip AVCHD camera, and the ideal successor to the HVX200 would be something using AVC-intra at up to 50 Mbps on standard (high-end) flash memory cards. But Sony has set the bar high by using 1920x1080 sensors and a matching recording format with an equivalent delivery option on Blu-ray discs. Panasonic has to go to AVC to survive, and if they're smart they'll dump P2 in the process and show us what's possible using *affordable* solid-state memory.

"Doomed" is a bit statement. Panasonic has sold an incredible amount of DVCPROHD camera and is entrenched in the broadcast and high-end world. The next move will undoubtedly will be towards AVC-intra for Panasonic but there's a lot more life in DVC yet. (and I don't own DVCPROHD).

Peter Jefferson · September 20th, 2007, 02:53 AM

"Doomed"
LOL sorry mate, but try tell that to the ABC hre in aus who just spent about $5mil on the P2 format and camera gear.. not to mention NLE's for broadcast..
Not to mention all the other production companies whove been usnig HVX and SDX units as a/b roll cameras for effects, crash cams, principle photography, blah blah...

the EX is a nice camera, but if anyone REALLY understood the diffrences, DVCProHD100 vs 35mbps XDCam EX is a non argument..
They are different beasts, behave differently, have different requirements for different purposes, are capable of different levels in regard to dynamic range... they cannot be compared.. as a codec..

Kevin Shaw · September 20th, 2007, 05:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Corbett

"Doomed" is a bit statement. Panasonic has sold an incredible amount of DVCPROHD camera and is entrenched in the broadcast and high-end world.

Okay, I guess that was too strong a statement - but expensive memory card formats won't be what makes tape irrelevant. I just heard that the "Red" camera can record 4K raw video on CompactFlash memory cards, so we don't need fancier memory for normal HD content. This goes for both Panasonic and Sony. :-(

Chris Hurd · September 20th, 2007, 07:39 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

I just heard that the "Red" camera can record 4K raw video on CompactFlash memory cards...

Wait, you're not telling the full story here. The RED camera needs the fastest Compact Flash cards that money can buy, only the speediest 300x cards will work, and they start at $200 for 8GB (and that's just for four minutes of recording time). It's not like you can use just any 'ol CF card in a RED.

Look, we went through this nonsense when was P2 first discussed here, and I'm not going to allow a repeat performance because that's not how this message board works. This camera records to Express Card flash memory and that fact is *not* going to change. Therefore it's pointless to argue about it. Please take the shoulda/coulda/woulda arguments elsewhere -- they don't accomplish anything. Thanks in advance for understanding,

Mark Williams · September 20th, 2007, 07:57 AM

I am interested in this cam for several reasons including:

- a real iris control ring. Never liked the thumb wheel type.
- 1/2" sensors
- 35 MB HD format
- Hopefully better glass than what I am currently using.
- real slow/fast motion
- Drag and drop file import from the cam

720P would be my shooting format of choice for output to SD-DVDs. Right now I am studying what type of PC NLE system will work best with real time output to an HD preview monitor w/o breaking the bank. Edius looks promising.

Kevin Shaw · September 20th, 2007, 08:52 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Hurd

Wait, you're not telling the full story here. The RED camera needs the fastest Compact Flash cards that money can buy, only the speediest 300x cards will work, and they start at $200 for 8GB (and that's just for four minutes of recording time). It's not like you can use just any 'ol CF card in a RED.

Good point, thanks for clarifying. FYI, the Extreme III cards are $210 for 16 GB on Amazon.com.

Sorry about getting off topic.

Steve Mydelski · September 20th, 2007, 09:03 AM

This camera appeals to me because it appears to be a tapeless media with some form of archiving besides HDDs.

I'm going to have to hear some real world accounts of how the lens feels and if the "wobble" effects is at play because of the CMOS.

I had my eye on the HPX-500 but I feel P2 has storage workflow issues. Now, this camera arrives, obviously with big differences between it and the 500, but with a workflow that is appealing. My only hesitation is I'm sure that Sony has a step up from the this model in the works. Worst case for me would be to get this model and ultimately use it as a B camera to what ever will be it's big brother.

Chris Hurd · September 20th, 2007, 09:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Kevin Shaw

FYI, the Extreme III cards are $210 for 16 GB on Amazon.com. Sorry about getting off topic.

Well, you're right, we're definitely off topic now, but you've just de-railed yourself there.

I'm not sure why you're mentioning the 16GB Extreme III Compact Flash cards for $210. Your argument was "RED works with Compact Flash cards," and my counterpoint was that RED works with only some Compact Flash cards, and the Extreme III card that you just referenced sure isn't one of them. Extreme III cards aren't fast enough for RED, which needs a card with a speed of at least 300x, in other words, if we're talking about the SanDisk brand, it needs to be an Extreme IV card since Extreme III won't cut it. So I don't understand why you're pointing to an Extreme III card for $210, since it sure isn't compatible with a RED One and therefore does not support your argument. Jim Jannard himself said "The guaranteed minimum write speed has to be greater than 30+MB per second" and Extreme III doesn't measure up to that. More importantly, Jannard has also pointed out that not all 300x cards work as advertised, so only those that are tested and approved by RED Digital Cinema will be guaranteed to work with RED One.

So let's be very clear here:

$17.5K RED One: 8GB 300x Compact Flash for $200: yields 4 minutes of 4K video at $50 per minute
$8K PMW-EX1: 8GB SxS Express Card for $500: yields 25 minutes of 1080p video at $20 per minute

Still very much an apples-to-oranges comparison (camera costs aren't equal, markets are not the same, native resolutions aren't equal, etc.), but I think it manages to clearly demonstrate that Express Card recording isn't nearly as costly and evil as you're trying to spin it.

Matt Davis · September 22nd, 2007, 01:52 PM

I've really wanted to go for the EX1. I've got a Z1 and have custody of an HVX200. Or am I having an affair with the HVX? Whatever. Mixed metaphors can be dangerous - beat until stiff, as they say.

Cut a long story/debate short: if I want to shoot footage that looks like expensive Super16 to the client, but need 4:3 and SD for legacy, and do a lot of run-and-gun as well as chromakey and talking heads, should I (shudder)...

...Consider getting a Brevis or M2 plus a clutch of nice Nikkor primes for the DoF, four 16 GB cards (close to the cost of SxS anyway), a good set of NDs and a really good follow focus system rather than go for the EX1?

As a Sony FanBoy, I feel it's a totally evil plan, but if a 1/2" sensor isn't going to be that noticable from 1/3", are my clients going to care about how many lines of resolution turn up on a chart?

Paul Izbicki · September 22nd, 2007, 04:03 PM

[QUOTE=Matt Daviss;748486
...Consider getting a Brevis or M2 plus a clutch of nice Nikkor primes for the DoF, four 16 GB cards (close to the cost of SxS anyway), a good set of NDs and a really good follow focus system rather than go for the EX1?

As a Sony FanBoy, I feel it's a totally evil plan, but if a 1/2" sensor isn't going to be that noticable from 1/3", are my clients going to care about how many lines of resolution turn up on a chart?[/QUOTE]

I got a feeling I'm gonna go crazy from all the speculation and "what if..." supposing that is going on surrounding this camera, but so many of these issues simply can't be resolved, or even addressed, until working models get into users hands. In the meantime, have a look at the stills that Chris posted here, just today.

http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=104053

Specifically, check out the two labelled keyboard and organist, if you want to check out DOF issues. If these weren't shot with a DOF adaptor, then none of us have any reason to worry about DOF, which is just one of many film-look attributes. Others I noted were the wakeboarding 720p24 for sharp detail in fast action, and the overly aggressive GradND in the desert shot, clearly visible.

Personally, the specs and feature set, as they are revealed, continue to impress me. I'd like to see a clip of a whip pan settling on a crowd or on a tree, as that will tell me a lot compared to my observations on HDV codec cameras, which don't handle that particular action very well in my experience. If it passes that test, I am on board.

September 19th, 2007, 03:33 PM	#31
Paul Izbicki Panoramic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 85	I'm just saying... One of the things I am stoked about is that ALL imaging uses the full 1920 x 1080 sensor array. Then, for 720p, the images are downrezzed. This COULD result in a high level of sensitivity in recording under low lux in this mode. The bitmap luminance level of the full 1/2" array, already anticipated to be quite sensitive, can be sampled for the smaller number of pixels contained in the 720 image. This MIGHT mean a higher degree of sensitivity in 720p, a very useful feature. Just thinking out loud. Not every client or situation needs the very highest resolution. A clean documentation of corporate presenters without the need for additional podium lighting, in eg. __________________ Paul Izbicki i2inewMedia

September 20th, 2007, 07:57 AM	#38
Mark Williams Trustee Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Deep South, U.S. Posts: 1,526	I am interested in this cam for several reasons including: - a real iris control ring. Never liked the thumb wheel type. - 1/2" sensors - 35 MB HD format - Hopefully better glass than what I am currently using. - real slow/fast motion - Drag and drop file import from the cam 720P would be my shooting format of choice for output to SD-DVDs. Right now I am studying what type of PC NLE system will work best with real time output to an HD preview monitor w/o breaking the bank. Edius looks promising. __________________ Mark videos: http://vimeo.com/channels/3523 Stock: http://www.pond5.com/artist/mark29

September 22nd, 2007, 01:52 PM	#42
Matt Davis Trustee Join Date: Aug 2005 Location: Berkshire, UK Posts: 1,562	Sowing seeds of discontent... I've really wanted to go for the EX1. I've got a Z1 and have custody of an HVX200. Or am I having an affair with the HVX? Whatever. Mixed metaphors can be dangerous - beat until stiff, as they say. Cut a long story/debate short: if I want to shoot footage that looks like expensive Super16 to the client, but need 4:3 and SD for legacy, and do a lot of run-and-gun as well as chromakey and talking heads, should I (shudder)... ...Consider getting a Brevis or M2 plus a clutch of nice Nikkor primes for the DoF, four 16 GB cards (close to the cost of SxS anyway), a good set of NDs and a really good follow focus system rather than go for the EX1? As a Sony FanBoy, I feel it's a totally evil plan, but if a 1/2" sensor isn't going to be that noticable from 1/3", are my clients going to care about how many lines of resolution turn up on a chart?

September 22nd, 2007, 04:03 PM	#43
Paul Izbicki Panoramic Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Knoxville, TN Posts: 85	[QUOTE=Matt Daviss;748486 ...Consider getting a Brevis or M2 plus a clutch of nice Nikkor primes for the DoF, four 16 GB cards (close to the cost of SxS anyway), a good set of NDs and a really good follow focus system rather than go for the EX1? As a Sony FanBoy, I feel it's a totally evil plan, but if a 1/2" sensor isn't going to be that noticable from 1/3", are my clients going to care about how many lines of resolution turn up on a chart?[/QUOTE] I got a feeling I'm gonna go crazy from all the speculation and "what if..." supposing that is going on surrounding this camera, but so many of these issues simply can't be resolved, or even addressed, until working models get into users hands. In the meantime, have a look at the stills that Chris posted here, just today. http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthread.php?t=104053 Specifically, check out the two labelled keyboard and organist, if you want to check out DOF issues. If these weren't shot with a DOF adaptor, then none of us have any reason to worry about DOF, which is just one of many film-look attributes. Others I noted were the wakeboarding 720p24 for sharp detail in fast action, and the overly aggressive GradND in the desert shot, clearly visible. Personally, the specs and feature set, as they are revealed, continue to impress me. I'd like to see a clip of a whip pan settling on a crowd or on a tree, as that will tell me a lot compared to my observations on HDV codec cameras, which don't handle that particular action very well in my experience. If it passes that test, I am on board. __________________ Paul Izbicki i2inewMedia

September 19th, 2007, 03:46 PM	#32
Joe Lawry Major Player Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 418	1st of October and Kiwis who havent been to nab,ibc or smpte will finally get to the see the camera, myself included. As much as i dont like mpeg based codecs.. and the lack of sd.. that real lens might sway me. Although from what i've seen it aint going to come in cheap. Couple more k and i could buy a HPX500 body.

September 20th, 2007, 02:53 AM	#35
Peter Jefferson Inner Circle Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Aus Posts: 3,884	"Doomed" LOL sorry mate, but try tell that to the ABC hre in aus who just spent about $5mil on the P2 format and camera gear.. not to mention NLE's for broadcast.. Not to mention all the other production companies whove been usnig HVX and SDX units as a/b roll cameras for effects, crash cams, principle photography, blah blah... the EX is a nice camera, but if anyone REALLY understood the diffrences, DVCProHD100 vs 35mbps XDCam EX is a non argument.. They are different beasts, behave differently, have different requirements for different purposes, are capable of different levels in regard to dynamic range... they cannot be compared.. as a codec..

September 20th, 2007, 09:03 AM	#40
Steve Mydelski Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2007 Location: Franklin,TN Posts: 32	This camera appeals to me because it appears to be a tapeless media with some form of archiving besides HDDs. I'm going to have to hear some real world accounts of how the lens feels and if the "wobble" effects is at play because of the CMOS. I had my eye on the HPX-500 but I feel P2 has storage workflow issues. Now, this camera arrives, obviously with big differences between it and the 500, but with a workflow that is appealing. My only hesitation is I'm sure that Sony has a step up from the this model in the works. Worst case for me would be to get this model and ultimately use it as a B camera to what ever will be it's big brother.