How wide is lens / options w/ 77mm lens thread at DVinfo.net

Tyson Persall · September 15th, 2007, 06:18 PM

All my filters for my current XL2 are 72mm lens thread size.
I was hoping to be able to use my existing lens excessories with this EX1 but it seems its lens thread size is 77mm.
Can one buy step up rings for 72mm to 77mm? and do you think this Will this work i wonder?

A wide angle lens is very importnat to me...
Currently I have a RedEye adaptor (wide angle screw on filter type) that is 72mm. I wonder if i can use it with EX1?
I wonder how wide the EX1 lens will be anyway.

George Johnston · September 15th, 2007, 06:47 PM

The lens on the EX is 31.4 wide (35mm) so I doubt stepping up from 72mm to 77mm will work without causing some vignetting (Vignetting is a reduction in image brightness in the image periphery compared to the image center). This 77mm thread size chosen by Sony will cause no end of problems as most of us have 72mm or 82mm fittings, though stepping from 82mm to 77mm may cause less problems.
FYI...
Red Eye 77mm 0.7x for Some Fujinon / Canon Lenses
Model: [RE-7707]

£195.00 ex VAT
£229.13 inc VAT

Wide Angle adapter for 72mm front thread camcorder such as Some Fujinon / Canon Lenses.

The 0.7x wide angle adapter will provide a 30% wider image and is supplied in a slim leather belt pouch.

Alister Chapman · September 16th, 2007, 02:31 AM

Sony have a matching wide angle adapter for the EX1. We tested it on our shoot and it performed very very well with full zoom through capability.

Brian Cassar · September 16th, 2007, 02:42 AM

Alister how much does one loose from the telephoto end when one uses the wide angle attachment? What is the factor ratio of the wide angle - 0.7x or 0.65x? Can one still use the supplied lens hood with the wide angle? Thanks

Tom Hardwick · September 17th, 2007, 01:22 AM

I'm pretty sure that Century, Raynox, RedEye and all the others are now just about to announce the 77 mm versions of their converter lenses. Not long ago they all had 58 mm lenses for the 'big' VX/PD, then along came the DVX100 and FX1 and lots of 72 mm versions appeared.

72 >77 step-up rings won't be common, but they'll be out there. Thing is with wide-angle converters you never know if it'll vignette the corners of the frame till you try it, and try it at all focal lengths, focus distances and apertures.

Sony and Canon's VAP OIS always made vignetting much more likely when you added a wide converter, but Fujinon's EX lens uses internal OIS elements, so vignetting should be less of a problem.

tom.

Alister Chapman · September 17th, 2007, 04:49 AM

I think it was a 0.7x and no you can't use the hood as the front element of the wide angle adapter is quite a bit larger.

George Johnston · September 17th, 2007, 05:48 AM

Quote Tom "72 >77 step-up rings won't be common" ...shutting 5mm diameter off the front of your lens will give you serious vignetting when your lens fully wide you don't have to be a physics teacher to predict this..stepping from a bigger lens to 77mm might work but be assured that you will not get away with sticking a 72mm WA adapter onto a 77mm lens and hoping it might be OK cos it wont. The whole point of a WA adapter is to get a good WA perspective not to mess about with apertures and focal lengths hoping you might just pull off a usable WA.

Tom Hardwick · September 17th, 2007, 06:19 AM

George, I may have more experience in fitting wide-angle converters than you do. No, I'm not a physics teacher, I'm a camcorder user.

Firstly the filter thread size has very little bearing on the diameter of the zoom's front element. You keep talking about a ''77 mm lens'' yet I'm sure you don't mean that. Have a look at the TRV900's 52 mm filter thread (12x f/1.6 zoom). Now compare this with the TRV950's 37 mm filter thread (12x f/1.6 zoom).

Above a certain point filter diameters are at the whim of the camera stylist, so much so that some filter threads even encompass the electronic flash gun. So yes, very often you can use a step-down ring and not vignette the image.

tom.

George Johnston · September 17th, 2007, 09:04 AM

Lets wait till one of gets this camera a see who is correct...77mm lens tells me it's a lens that takes 77mm filters...don't see why you find this hard to accept.

Tom Hardwick · September 17th, 2007, 09:14 AM

Yes, it's a wait and see game. As I said in my previous post, 'you never know if it'll vignette the corners of the frame till you try it'.

I'm not finding it 'hard to accept' George, but in my book a 77 mm lens is just that - it has a focal length of 77 mm. If you walk into Jessops and ask for a 50 mm lens, that's what you'll be given.

To simplify and clarify (as my physics master used to say) I feel we need to be more specific when we talk about filter thread diameters - which have not the slightest bearing on the focal length, aperture or zoom range of the lens they front.

tom.

George Johnston · September 17th, 2007, 09:49 AM

Correct if you are seeing it from a still camera point of view a 50mm lens is a standard lens so I will take this into account for future posts.

Alister Chapman · September 17th, 2007, 11:02 AM

The sony wide adapter is a 0.8x lens.

George Johnston · September 17th, 2007, 02:09 PM

I calculate the Sony WA adapter brings the Sony EX to a 25mm perspective in 35mm SLR terms.

Tyson Persall · September 18th, 2007, 09:38 PM

So it is theoretically possible - as Tom pointed out - that the Actual lens of the EX1 is of equivalent size to the Lens on XL2 or DVX... I have an bit of an investment in 72mm size lenses and filters. Particularly i would like to use my new $575 72mm fish eye lens on this camera. My business uses XL2 and DVX100...

-But how would we know for sure??
According to the EX1 borcure....

------Filter thread M77 mm, pitch 0.75 mm (on lens)------

Ok, so 77mm is thread size but What is pitch? Anybody know?

Tom Hardwick · September 19th, 2007, 01:54 AM

Tyson But how would we know for sure Pursall - as I've said before, it's a suck-it-and-see situation.

Look at it this way. You have a 77 mm fitting wide-angle attachment and offer it up to your TRV950's 37 mm filter thread. No vignetting, right? No, of course not, the widie is huge. But hold the widie 6" in front of your camcorder and what now? Why, massive vignetting.

So camcorder designers that put the front element very close to their filter threads lessen the chances of vignetting occuring when you attach wide-angle converters. Of course up-front elemets like this are more exposed, more vulnerable...

But there's a catch here. The VX2k, XM2, XL1s and so on employ the VAP OIS system, and this puts an extra three elements (two glass, one fluid) in front of your zoom's front element. In so doing the designers are forcing you to move any attached wide converter away from your front element, so increasing your chances of vignetting.

So you just might be lucky with your expensive fisheye on the 77 mm fitting EX. There's no VAP forcing the fisheye forward, so back to square one - suck it and see.

tom.

September 15th, 2007, 06:18 PM	#1
Tyson Persall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: North Hollywood, Atlanta Posts: 437	How wide is lens / options w/ 77mm lens thread All my filters for my current XL2 are 72mm lens thread size. I was hoping to be able to use my existing lens excessories with this EX1 but it seems its lens thread size is 77mm. Can one buy step up rings for 72mm to 77mm? and do you think this Will this work i wonder? A wide angle lens is very importnat to me... Currently I have a RedEye adaptor (wide angle screw on filter type) that is 72mm. I wonder if i can use it with EX1? I wonder how wide the EX1 lens will be anyway. __________________ Tyson X

September 16th, 2007, 02:31 AM	#3
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	Sony have a matching wide angle adapter for the EX1. We tested it on our shoot and it performed very very well with full zoom through capability. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

September 17th, 2007, 04:49 AM	#6
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	I think it was a 0.7x and no you can't use the hood as the front element of the wide angle adapter is quite a bit larger. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

September 17th, 2007, 05:48 AM	#7
George Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 54	You can't be serious Quote Tom "72 >77 step-up rings won't be common" ...shutting 5mm diameter off the front of your lens will give you serious vignetting when your lens fully wide you don't have to be a physics teacher to predict this..stepping from a bigger lens to 77mm might work but be assured that you will not get away with sticking a 72mm WA adapter onto a 77mm lens and hoping it might be OK cos it wont. The whole point of a WA adapter is to get a good WA perspective not to mess about with apertures and focal lengths hoping you might just pull off a usable WA.

September 17th, 2007, 09:04 AM	#9
George Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 54	Tom, we will return to this come November Lets wait till one of gets this camera a see who is correct...77mm lens tells me it's a lens that takes 77mm filters...don't see why you find this hard to accept.

September 15th, 2007, 06:47 PM	#2
George Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 54	The lens on the EX is 31.4 wide (35mm) so I doubt stepping up from 72mm to 77mm will work without causing some vignetting (Vignetting is a reduction in image brightness in the image periphery compared to the image center). This 77mm thread size chosen by Sony will cause no end of problems as most of us have 72mm or 82mm fittings, though stepping from 82mm to 77mm may cause less problems. FYI... Red Eye 77mm 0.7x for Some Fujinon / Canon Lenses Model: [RE-7707] £195.00 ex VAT £229.13 inc VAT Wide Angle adapter for 72mm front thread camcorder such as Some Fujinon / Canon Lenses. The 0.7x wide angle adapter will provide a 30% wider image and is supplied in a slim leather belt pouch.

September 16th, 2007, 02:42 AM	#4
Brian Cassar Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Malta Posts: 306	Alister how much does one loose from the telephoto end when one uses the wide angle attachment? What is the factor ratio of the wide angle - 0.7x or 0.65x? Can one still use the supplied lens hood with the wide angle? Thanks

September 17th, 2007, 01:22 AM	#5
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	I'm pretty sure that Century, Raynox, RedEye and all the others are now just about to announce the 77 mm versions of their converter lenses. Not long ago they all had 58 mm lenses for the 'big' VX/PD, then along came the DVX100 and FX1 and lots of 72 mm versions appeared. 72 >77 step-up rings won't be common, but they'll be out there. Thing is with wide-angle converters you never know if it'll vignette the corners of the frame till you try it, and try it at all focal lengths, focus distances and apertures. Sony and Canon's VAP OIS always made vignetting much more likely when you added a wide converter, but Fujinon's EX lens uses internal OIS elements, so vignetting should be less of a problem. tom.

September 17th, 2007, 06:19 AM	#8
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	George, I may have more experience in fitting wide-angle converters than you do. No, I'm not a physics teacher, I'm a camcorder user. Firstly the filter thread size has very little bearing on the diameter of the zoom's front element. You keep talking about a ''77 mm lens'' yet I'm sure you don't mean that. Have a look at the TRV900's 52 mm filter thread (12x f/1.6 zoom). Now compare this with the TRV950's 37 mm filter thread (12x f/1.6 zoom). Above a certain point filter diameters are at the whim of the camera stylist, so much so that some filter threads even encompass the electronic flash gun. So yes, very often you can use a step-down ring and not vignette the image. tom.

September 17th, 2007, 09:14 AM	#10
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Yes, it's a wait and see game. As I said in my previous post, 'you never know if it'll vignette the corners of the frame till you try it'. I'm not finding it 'hard to accept' George, but in my book a 77 mm lens is just that - it has a focal length of 77 mm. If you walk into Jessops and ask for a 50 mm lens, that's what you'll be given. To simplify and clarify (as my physics master used to say) I feel we need to be more specific when we talk about filter thread diameters - which have not the slightest bearing on the focal length, aperture or zoom range of the lens they front. tom.

September 17th, 2007, 09:49 AM	#11
George Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 54	Tom I see where you are coming from Correct if you are seeing it from a still camera point of view a 50mm lens is a standard lens so I will take this into account for future posts.

September 17th, 2007, 11:02 AM	#12
Alister Chapman Inner Circle Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Bracknell, Berkshire, UK Posts: 4,957	The sony wide adapter is a 0.8x lens. __________________ Alister Chapman, Film-Maker/Stormchaser http://www.xdcam-user.com/alisters-blog/ My XDCAM site and blog. http://www.hurricane-rig.com

September 17th, 2007, 02:09 PM	#13
George Johnston Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Scotland Posts: 54	Any idea of cost for the Sony lens Alister ? I calculate the Sony WA adapter brings the Sony EX to a 25mm perspective in 35mm SLR terms.

September 18th, 2007, 09:38 PM	#14
Tyson Persall Major Player Join Date: Sep 2004 Location: North Hollywood, Atlanta Posts: 437	Thread size vs. Actual lens size. So it is theoretically possible - as Tom pointed out - that the Actual lens of the EX1 is of equivalent size to the Lens on XL2 or DVX... I have an bit of an investment in 72mm size lenses and filters. Particularly i would like to use my new $575 72mm fish eye lens on this camera. My business uses XL2 and DVX100... -But how would we know for sure?? According to the EX1 borcure.... ------Filter thread M77 mm, pitch 0.75 mm (on lens)------ Ok, so 77mm is thread size but What is pitch? Anybody know? __________________ Tyson X

September 19th, 2007, 01:54 AM	#15
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Tyson But how would we know for sure Pursall - as I've said before, it's a suck-it-and-see situation. Look at it this way. You have a 77 mm fitting wide-angle attachment and offer it up to your TRV950's 37 mm filter thread. No vignetting, right? No, of course not, the widie is huge. But hold the widie 6" in front of your camcorder and what now? Why, massive vignetting. So camcorder designers that put the front element very close to their filter threads lessen the chances of vignetting occuring when you attach wide-angle converters. Of course up-front elemets like this are more exposed, more vulnerable... But there's a catch here. The VX2k, XM2, XL1s and so on employ the VAP OIS system, and this puts an extra three elements (two glass, one fluid) in front of your zoom's front element. In so doing the designers are forcing you to move any attached wide converter away from your front element, so increasing your chances of vignetting. So you just might be lucky with your expensive fisheye on the 77 mm fitting EX. There's no VAP forcing the fisheye forward, so back to square one - suck it and see. tom.