Archiving XD Cam EX Footage

Peter Kraft · January 8th, 2008, 05:16 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Schmerin

My means of archiving is very similar and I also run Final Cut but I do it all from a PC. On a PC I use Sony's Clip Browser software to export all the materials on the card to a .mxf file. The export is a faster then real time process. about 4x would be my guesstimate. Then like you, I burn these .mxf files to DVD.
The advantages to me ... I end up with a cost effective archive which is Mac and PC compatible.

Smart and platform independent solution.
We have to understand that it is best to liberate our workflows from what we are suggested by the software industry and opt for kind of "abstract" files that run on various platforms, under various OS' and with many apps.
.mxf is such an independent solution.

To add a final touch on the hardware side, I'd use a Macbook Pro or a Mac Pro (both Intel) and run Sony's Clip Browser Software under Parallels/Win on any of those two platforms mentioned.

Peter Kraft · January 8th, 2008, 05:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Chris Leong

In my experience, tape / archival backups are complete hardware/software solutions or not at all.

I'd rather opt for "not at all" and go for a workflow as outlined in post above.

Paul Joy · January 8th, 2008, 05:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Brendan Pyatt

I don't quite understand. I was hoping to copy the files off the card to my pc and then burn a dvd or blu-ray disc from that. I thought that would leave the files in their orginal format.

That's exactly what I do and it works fine (at least on the mac). Using the XDCAM file transfer app is more time consuming than just duplicating the mounted SxS card.

I just duplicate the cards, rename the copy to something meaningful and then point the transfer app at that copy to import the clips or subclips to the editor when the time comes.

I haven't solved archival for myself yet, but I'll probably go with the XDCAM drive and disks as that will also give me the ability to send content to others who will recognize the format / media and be able to handle it.
It will also give me the ability to upgrade to a bigger XDCAM camera should business require it in the future and continue using the same media.

Paul Newman · January 8th, 2008, 06:06 AM

I'm using Revpro 35 for archiving now and will adopt 70 when it comes, as a couple of hire houses in London will use this as a "shippable" commodity, it is robust and fast, and I can't see many hire companies "lending" their Express media to clients to offload, at least not until it all gets really cheap. I can edit directly from the Rev Pro drive (firewire) at 1440x1080, although I doubt it'll manage full HQ 1920x1080 without a render, or transfering the files needed to HDD.

Also, I'm about to add a Sony laptop, with twin 160gb (raid possible) drives, 4gb ram and blueray burner, as well as Express 34/54 slot, to the system. Not a bad little tool for 1200 euros.

Paul

Andrew Wilson · January 8th, 2008, 08:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Craig Seeman

I can still find CD readers that can read 15 year old CD data discs. On the other hand I don't readily have D2 deck to play my D2 tapes.

That's funny you would say that... About 3 hours before you made that post, a client of mine called me and asked if I could author a DVD for a video he made less than 10 years ago. He's sending me the master... on D2.

It took me about half and hour but I found a place in LA that would do the transfer for me.

Felix Sorger · January 11th, 2008, 09:10 AM

I have had a lot of hard disk failures so I would opt as well for a blueray archival method.
But I am still a fan of putting the tape in the shelf...

would it make any sense to shoot in 35 mbit and then archive to DV-tape (at 25 mbit HDV)?
OK, there is a loss of quality but still a trace when all the other archives failed... HD Crash, BR Disc unreadable and so on...

Andrew Wilson · January 11th, 2008, 09:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Felix Sorger

would it make any sense to shoot in 35 mbit and then archive to DV-tape (at 25 mbit HDV)?
OK, there is a loss of quality but still a trace when all the other archives failed... HD Crash, BR Disc unreadable and so on...

Probably not worth the time. In order to have your archives really worth anything you need to be able to restore them and use them when you need the footage. In order for your timelines to make sense and have the Time Codes make sense, you would have to archive to dv tape as HDV, then capture off that tape, then edit. By then, you've wasted the benefits of tapeless workflow.

I've got miniDV tape that's about 10 years old and I pray to St. Oxide everytime a client calls up and wants a reedit. I don't think miniDV tape is as robost as one would hope. I've had some issues with old tape. On the other hand, I've got CD-Rs that are 15 years old and read as good as new.

Rob Hughes · January 11th, 2008, 07:37 PM

A question which is loosely related to this topic:

What workflow do you guys use with the EX1?

Our studio has just bought a couple and they'll be arriving soon.

So you're out in the field shooting.....fill up your memory cards.....what happens next?
Do you download them straight into a laptop?
Are there any storage devices just to dump the data straight onto, without the need for a laptop?
Do you store the data straight to a RAID array so that as soon as the data comes off the card, you've got a backup?

My concerns are that i'm often out on the road for a few days in a row shooting in various locations without going back to the studio in between. In the past, i always had the tapes to turn back to if any hard drives etc fail, but now i'll be re-using the flash cards in the EX1.

Andrew Wilson · January 11th, 2008, 07:42 PM

If I were in that position, I would take my MacBook Pro with the expresscard slot and clone the cards to DVD-DL. If you're using 16 gig cards you can split them using clip browser.

Then delete all clips from the card and go at it the next day.

Chris Leong · January 11th, 2008, 07:51 PM

Rob

Interior (set piece) scenes - bring your main NLE and 23" screen, go tethered if you want to. Get everything onto your main editing HDDs as soon as you can, make backups, either DVD, Blu Ray, other HDDs, whatever, probably two sets if you can.
Triple check for data integrity the hard way. (you might have a night shift AE or put your editor on nights on for this, it's so important)

Erase and reshoot.

Exterior (location) scenes - laptop to DVD and backup to USB powered HDDs. They're small, cheap laptop drive enclosures that run power off the USB port of your laptop.

That evening, or when you're next at AC power access at your shooting HQ, port to your main NLE and backup as above, triple check for data integrity and then erase originals.

Apple carts (hand trucks with a G5, eSATA RAIDs and 23" screens on them) are pretty common on every set these days.

Evan Donn · January 11th, 2008, 08:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson

All this time I thought Iomega's REV drives were actually tape drives but it looks like they're removable hard drives - spinning platters and everything.

That cements my optical disc solution.

I haven't used REV but personally I would never consider any archival solution which involves Iomega products. Over the years I've had far more Bernoulli, Zip and Jaz discs fail than optical - and I've used a lot more optical discs as well. I still have files on Bernoulli and Jazz discs which would take some work to track down drives which I could use with any modern system - and though I still have a Zip drive around here I've long ago moved everything important off the discs because so many started failing after a year or two.

In fact, I have some of my earliest photoshop work stored on two formats - bernoulli and cd (I remember paying $50 to have the disc burned in 1994!) - and while the bernoulli disc may or may not even be readable (if I could find a drive and system to access it on) the cd is still readable in all five of my current computers.

Peter Wright · January 11th, 2008, 09:19 PM

Just got the double DVD Set "Mastering the Sony PMW-EX1" by Vortex Media, featuring Doug Jensen. Learned lots of new techniques & details, but here's his take on Archiving:

First he uses only 8Gb SxS cards, because they fit neatly onto DL DVDs, which is one of his archive media, which he keeps in a separate building from the second:
The second is external 250Gb Hard Drives, which will take 13 hours of HQ footage.

He says the chances of both media becoming corrupt at the same time is virtually nil. The cost of this double archive is 65 cents per Gb, which compares favourably with most other methods, including BluRay.

Rob Hughes · January 12th, 2008, 04:17 AM

Andrew - i can see where you're coming from with the laptop approach. Have you done this already? How long does it take to clone an 8gb card onto DVD?

And Chris, thanks for your response - that system would work on a larger scale production, but at the moment, we tend to produce more short docu films, a lot about sport, often shot in a day.
Its a case of rock up at the location, film all day to a pretty hectic schedule, then off to a hotel for the evening then onto a new location the following day.

In the past, shooting with the z1, you fill up your hours worth of tape, shove in a new one and you're good to go again.
So using the EX1, is it relatively quick? painless? simple? just to clone the card on the macbook, or would it be quicker dumping it down to a USB drive or something, then backing up later that evening maybe?

A slightly more expensive solution that i've already thought of is just to buy more memory cards, but they're pretty pricy at the moment!

Andrew Wilson · January 12th, 2008, 06:02 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob Hughes

Andrew - i can see where you're coming from with the laptop approach. Have you done this already? How long does it take to clone an 8gb card onto DVD?

All theory my friend, my camera arrives next week. ;)

But like an Olympic diver, I feel like I've gone through the motions in my head a hundred times before jumping into the water.

I'll post cloning benchmark results when the camera comes. However, my MBPro is only a 6x burner.

David Schmerin · January 12th, 2008, 11:37 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Kraft

Smart and platform independent solution.
We have to understand that it is best to liberate our workflows from what we are suggested by the software industry and opt for kind of "abstract" files that run on various platforms, under various OS' and with many apps.
.mxf is such an independent solution.

To add a final touch on the hardware side, I'd use a Macbook Pro or a Mac Pro (both Intel) and run Sony's Clip Browser Software under Parallels/Win on any of those two platforms mentioned.

Sad as this is, we seem to have found a problem with our archiving solution... FCP6 can not read the .mxf files.

If you try to use the transfer software on the Mac to import .mxf files produced by the clip browser software on the PC you are going to have a few problems if you shoot in HQ 35mbs mode:

1) FCP and Clip Browser will not be able to read 720 .mxf files produced by Clip Browser.

2) FCP and Clip Browser will read 1080 .mxf files produced by Clip Browser but the but the scaling of the video will be seriously out of whack

3) If you try to bring in your video to Vegas first, Vegas can only render out 1440*1080/60i video

Back to the drawing board

David Schmerin
www.GotFootageHD.com

Samples of my EX1 footage can be downloaded from ftp://vegas:demo@download.gotfootage.com

January 8th, 2008, 06:06 AM	#64
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	I'm using Revpro 35 for archiving now and will adopt 70 when it comes, as a couple of hire houses in London will use this as a "shippable" commodity, it is robust and fast, and I can't see many hire companies "lending" their Express media to clients to offload, at least not until it all gets really cheap. I can edit directly from the Rev Pro drive (firewire) at 1440x1080, although I doubt it'll manage full HQ 1920x1080 without a render, or transfering the files needed to HDD. Also, I'm about to add a Sony laptop, with twin 160gb (raid possible) drives, 4gb ram and blueray burner, as well as Express 34/54 slot, to the system. Not a bad little tool for 1200 euros. Paul __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza

January 11th, 2008, 09:10 AM	#66
Felix Sorger Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Luxemburg Posts: 27	I have had a lot of hard disk failures so I would opt as well for a blueray archival method. But I am still a fan of putting the tape in the shelf... would it make any sense to shoot in 35 mbit and then archive to DV-tape (at 25 mbit HDV)? OK, there is a loss of quality but still a trace when all the other archives failed... HD Crash, BR Disc unreadable and so on...

January 11th, 2008, 07:37 PM	#68
Rob Hughes New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: uk Posts: 19	A question which is loosely related to this topic: What workflow do you guys use with the EX1? Our studio has just bought a couple and they'll be arriving soon. So you're out in the field shooting.....fill up your memory cards.....what happens next? Do you download them straight into a laptop? Are there any storage devices just to dump the data straight onto, without the need for a laptop? Do you store the data straight to a RAID array so that as soon as the data comes off the card, you've got a backup? My concerns are that i'm often out on the road for a few days in a row shooting in various locations without going back to the studio in between. In the past, i always had the tapes to turn back to if any hard drives etc fail, but now i'll be re-using the flash cards in the EX1.

January 11th, 2008, 07:42 PM	#69
Andrew Wilson Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 123	If I were in that position, I would take my MacBook Pro with the expresscard slot and clone the cards to DVD-DL. If you're using 16 gig cards you can split them using clip browser. Then delete all clips from the card and go at it the next day.

January 11th, 2008, 07:51 PM	#70
Chris Leong Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles CA USA Posts: 507	Rob Interior (set piece) scenes - bring your main NLE and 23" screen, go tethered if you want to. Get everything onto your main editing HDDs as soon as you can, make backups, either DVD, Blu Ray, other HDDs, whatever, probably two sets if you can. Triple check for data integrity the hard way. (you might have a night shift AE or put your editor on nights on for this, it's so important) Erase and reshoot. Exterior (location) scenes - laptop to DVD and backup to USB powered HDDs. They're small, cheap laptop drive enclosures that run power off the USB port of your laptop. That evening, or when you're next at AC power access at your shooting HQ, port to your main NLE and backup as above, triple check for data integrity and then erase originals. Apple carts (hand trucks with a G5, eSATA RAIDs and 23" screens on them) are pretty common on every set these days.

January 11th, 2008, 09:19 PM	#72
Peter Wright Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2003 Location: Perth, Western Australia Posts: 193	Just got the double DVD Set "Mastering the Sony PMW-EX1" by Vortex Media, featuring Doug Jensen. Learned lots of new techniques & details, but here's his take on Archiving: First he uses only 8Gb SxS cards, because they fit neatly onto DL DVDs, which is one of his archive media, which he keeps in a separate building from the second: The second is external 250Gb Hard Drives, which will take 13 hours of HQ footage. He says the chances of both media becoming corrupt at the same time is virtually nil. The cost of this double archive is 65 cents per Gb, which compares favourably with most other methods, including BluRay.

January 12th, 2008, 04:17 AM	#73
Rob Hughes New Boot Join Date: Apr 2007 Location: uk Posts: 19	Andrew - i can see where you're coming from with the laptop approach. Have you done this already? How long does it take to clone an 8gb card onto DVD? And Chris, thanks for your response - that system would work on a larger scale production, but at the moment, we tend to produce more short docu films, a lot about sport, often shot in a day. Its a case of rock up at the location, film all day to a pretty hectic schedule, then off to a hotel for the evening then onto a new location the following day. In the past, shooting with the z1, you fill up your hours worth of tape, shove in a new one and you're good to go again. So using the EX1, is it relatively quick? painless? simple? just to clone the card on the macbook, or would it be quicker dumping it down to a USB drive or something, then backing up later that evening maybe? A slightly more expensive solution that i've already thought of is just to buy more memory cards, but they're pretty pricy at the moment!