Archiving XD Cam EX Footage

Phil Bloom · January 4th, 2008, 02:50 AM

it was the usb version as I wanted the 70gb discs

Andrew Wilson · January 4th, 2008, 08:44 AM

Well, if it doesn't exist, I guess I won't be going with the firewire 70. ;)

I haven't been able to find any support docs that say it's not compatible (or that it is) with 10.5.

So other than not working once you changed to 10.5, how did the REV work for you?

Andrew Wilson · January 4th, 2008, 08:53 AM

Not that you needed to be told that the drive didn't work under 10.5 but I did find the support doc from iomega...

https://iomega-na-en.custhelp.com/cg...i=&p_topview=1

Andrew Wilson · January 4th, 2008, 11:44 AM

Okay...

For the time being I'm going to stock up on DL DVD's.

- I already have the drive in both my macbook pro and my macpro

- The cost is about .15 a gig

- Most of my work is short-form training and TV spots so I'll shoot, ingest, burn and store.

- The drawback is I will probably have some projects that don't eat up an entire disk and some that will require more than one but I figure I can get 24 minutes at HQ to 1 disc which actually costs less than miniDV tape.

There you go... decision made... for now.

Phil Bloom · January 4th, 2008, 12:10 PM

i was already on 10.5 when i bought it!

Benjamin Eckstein · January 4th, 2008, 05:29 PM

Question:
This may have been covered....but, is the expected shelf life of Blu-ray burned on consumers burners higher than DVD? I believe XDCAM optical is essentially Blu-ray in its basic burning technology (right?).

If so I think I will do a combo of hard drives and Blu-ray backups.....as well as probably RAID storage for my online work. I was thinking of going with the LTO drives but it pains me to go to a archive that is slow to access from (unless its changed a lot since I last used tape backups).

B

David Schmerin · January 5th, 2008, 11:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson

- Most of my work is short-form training and TV spots so I'll shoot, ingest, burn and store.

This sounds like a good idea, but there is something to consider here... If you first ingest the material to your Mac (I assume you mean via the XDCAM Transfer utility) the .mov files on your hard drive will in the future only be able to be read in a Final Cut. If in the future when re-edit time comes your situation changes and you find yourself working in a different platform, say AVID, your archived video will be useless. If you save just the .mp4 files you will be OK on the PC but Final Cut will not be able to read them. You could save the entire file structure on the card which should work.

My means of archiving is very similar and I also run Final Cut but I do it all from a PC. On a PC I use Sony's Clip Browser software to export all the materials on the card to a .mxf file. The export is a faster then real time process. about 4x would be my guesstimate. Then like you, I burn these .mxf files to DVD.

The advantages to me are clear in that I end up with a cost effective archive which is Mac and PC compatible. The footage archived remains in it's orginal native format. The XDCAM transfer software on the Mac can import the .mxf files with no issues. Once the master archive is produced, the DVD then goes to the robot for automated production of multiple backup copies.

The disadvantage to this is that unlike using the XDCAM transfer software on the Mac, the Clip Browser on the PC does not have the ability to mark points and export sub clips. So if you really only wanted to keep in the archive only 10 seconds of a 30 second shot, you are out of luck, you have to take the whole 30 seconds.

My EX1 samples can be downloaded from ftp://vegas:demo@download.gotfootage.com

David Schmerin
www.GotFootageHD.com

Brendan Pyatt · January 5th, 2008, 11:28 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Schmerin

My means of archiving is very similar and I also run Final Cut but I do it all from a PC. On a PC I use Sony's Clip Browser software to export all the materials on the card to a .mxf file. The export is a faster then real time process. about 4x would be my guesstimate. Then like you, I burn these .mxf files to DVD.[/url]

I don't quite understand. I was hoping to copy the files off the card to my pc and then burn a dvd or blu-ray disc from that. I thought that would leave the files in their orginal format.

This is what I do with the files from my v1u on my dr-60.

Are you saying one just can't copy the files off an SxS card?

thanks.

Andrew Wilson · January 5th, 2008, 12:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by David Schmerin

If in the future when re-edit time comes your situation changes and you find yourself working in a different platform, say AVID, your archived video will be useless.

That's a really good point that I hadn't considered. I'm treating my archive just like I would treat the 1000+ miniDV tapes I have cataloged in my library. I think when my camera arrives, I'm going to test out this workflow...

(I'm assuming that when you hook up the camera to a MacPro, it just shows up as a device, right?)

Shoot, attach camera to MacPro, use toast to copy the image of the card to a DL-DVD. Label DVD and store, then ingest from camera to FCP.

Now... if I'm using 2 8 gig cards in the camera, does the camera show up as 2 devices or just 1? and what about when I'm shooting with a 16 gig card?

Craig Seeman · January 5th, 2008, 01:24 PM

Using a G5 but MacPro should be the same. Each card in the camera shows up as a device.

I think the best thing is drop the folder on to a disc. You'll have the original files and folder structure.

Now what to do with 16GB card which doesn't fit on DVD-DL. That's why Blu-ray will make it easier.

Andrew Wilson · January 5th, 2008, 01:53 PM

Correct me if I'm wrong but LaCie makes a Blu-Ray burner that's mac friendly but right now, DVD Studio Pro can't author blu-ray ready dvd's.

However, the drive would still work as a big archive drive, right?

Craig Seeman · January 5th, 2008, 02:04 PM

Authoring is one thing. Archival of data is another. I believe Toast will allow you burn data to Blu-ray. Adobe has Intel Mac compatible software that can author Blu-ray. I STRONGLY suspect Apple will announce Blu-ray support at Macworld in 10 days. FastMac also makes Blu-ray burners for the Mac.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson

Correct me if I'm wrong but LaCie makes a Blu-Ray burner that's mac friendly but right now, DVD Studio Pro can't author blu-ray ready dvd's.

However, the drive would still work as a big archive drive, right?

Andrew Wilson · January 7th, 2008, 05:43 PM

All this time I thought Iomega's REV drives were actually tape drives but it looks like they're removable hard drives - spinning platters and everything.

That cements my optical disc solution.

Craig Seeman · January 7th, 2008, 07:24 PM

I can still find CD readers that can read 15 year old CD data discs. On the other hand I don't readily have D2 deck to play my D2 tapes. I have Syquest EZ135 discs that would take some work to find a working reader. I have Iomega Zip discs of varying sizes that would require me to find a player.

It seems optical discs readers/burners remain backward compatibility. I think you'll be able to read a Blu-ray disc in 15 years as long as the disc itself holds up.

Archival is as much about "player/reader" availability as it is about the media itself.

I have visions of people with JVC HDV 720p60 tapes and in 15 years finding only Sony HDV players. Some years back I worked on a preservation project in which the source was 1/2" reel to reel video (and there were several formats). Cleaning the tapes were one thing but finding a working compatible player was a real bear.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Andrew Wilson

All this time I thought Iomega's REV drives were actually tape drives but it looks like they're removable hard drives - spinning platters and everything.

That cements my optical disc solution.

Chris Leong · January 7th, 2008, 07:57 PM

In my experience, tape / archival backups are complete hardware/software solutions or not at all.

I once kept a whole bunch of feature film edits and mixes on 8mm data tape, with a SCSI tape player that I kept in an old machine specifically for the purpose of retrieval at a later date (BTW that old machine still has a 3.5", a 5.25" and an 8" FDD drive...)

Around 3 years later I was able to pull the data off the 8mm tapes and get them onto a DLT drive.

Five years after that I tried to restore the DLT drive data (to move them onto an LTO drive) but was told by the software manufacturer (who is still a major player in this arena) that the current version of my $300 archival software no longer controls the older DLT drive, and that I would have to pay an extra $200+ to get the DLT data converted to LTO.

When I told them about my old 8mm tapes the kid on the other end of the line practically laughed in my face.

Needless to say I got my old machine out of the cupboard, fired it right up, got out my original 8mm tapes (which I still have in storage) and did it all again myself, this time from 8mm to LTO, for nothing.

But as you can see, this means holding on not only to the tapes themselves, but also to a viable recorder/player and the controlling software that works with that player. For as many years as you need to keep your storage going, or at least to get you to the next level.

Back then 8mm was the thing. Then DLT. Then LTO Now it's LTO3, soon to be LTO4. Everybody swears backwards compatibility with their systems, but only a few actually deliver it (without charging extra, that is).

Good thing is this: all those ole 8mm tapes (around 60 of them)? The data from them fits into a couple of LTO2 tapes. And probably just a tiny portion of the next generation of archival storage..

I tend to use the third newest computer in my collection for backups, pretty much dedicated to it, BTW, so I don't get frustrated with backup and retrieval times. The newest one is usually on editing and render intensive work, then the second one is media management, ingest and outputs.

So don't junk your old computers!

January 4th, 2008, 02:50 AM	#46
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	it was the usb version as I wanted the 70gb discs __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

January 4th, 2008, 11:44 AM	#49
Andrew Wilson Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 123	Decision Made... I think Okay... For the time being I'm going to stock up on DL DVD's. - I already have the drive in both my macbook pro and my macpro - The cost is about .15 a gig - Most of my work is short-form training and TV spots so I'll shoot, ingest, burn and store. - The drawback is I will probably have some projects that don't eat up an entire disk and some that will require more than one but I figure I can get 24 minutes at HQ to 1 disc which actually costs less than miniDV tape. There you go... decision made... for now.

January 4th, 2008, 12:10 PM	#50
Phil Bloom Trustee Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: London UK Posts: 1,939	i was already on 10.5 when i bought it! __________________ Philip Bloom Cinematographer, Director, Filmmaker www.philipbloom.net

January 4th, 2008, 08:44 AM	#47
Andrew Wilson Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 123	Well, if it doesn't exist, I guess I won't be going with the firewire 70. ;) I haven't been able to find any support docs that say it's not compatible (or that it is) with 10.5. So other than not working once you changed to 10.5, how did the REV work for you?

January 4th, 2008, 08:53 AM	#48
Andrew Wilson Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 123	Not that you needed to be told that the drive didn't work under 10.5 but I did find the support doc from iomega... https://iomega-na-en.custhelp.com/cg...i=&p_topview=1

January 4th, 2008, 05:29 PM	#51
Benjamin Eckstein Major Player Join Date: Jan 2007 Location: Boston, Massachusetts Posts: 380 Images: 1	Question: This may have been covered....but, is the expected shelf life of Blu-ray burned on consumers burners higher than DVD? I believe XDCAM optical is essentially Blu-ray in its basic burning technology (right?). If so I think I will do a combo of hard drives and Blu-ray backups.....as well as probably RAID storage for my online work. I was thinking of going with the LTO drives but it pains me to go to a archive that is slow to access from (unless its changed a lot since I last used tape backups). B

January 5th, 2008, 01:24 PM	#55
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Using a G5 but MacPro should be the same. Each card in the camera shows up as a device. I think the best thing is drop the folder on to a disc. You'll have the original files and folder structure. Now what to do with 16GB card which doesn't fit on DVD-DL. That's why Blu-ray will make it easier.

January 5th, 2008, 01:53 PM	#56
Andrew Wilson Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 123	Correct me if I'm wrong but LaCie makes a Blu-Ray burner that's mac friendly but right now, DVD Studio Pro can't author blu-ray ready dvd's. However, the drive would still work as a big archive drive, right?

January 7th, 2008, 05:43 PM	#58
Andrew Wilson Tourist Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Vermont, USA Posts: 123	All this time I thought Iomega's REV drives were actually tape drives but it looks like they're removable hard drives - spinning platters and everything. That cements my optical disc solution.

January 7th, 2008, 07:57 PM	#60
Chris Leong Major Player Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Los Angeles CA USA Posts: 507	In my experience, tape / archival backups are complete hardware/software solutions or not at all. I once kept a whole bunch of feature film edits and mixes on 8mm data tape, with a SCSI tape player that I kept in an old machine specifically for the purpose of retrieval at a later date (BTW that old machine still has a 3.5", a 5.25" and an 8" FDD drive...) Around 3 years later I was able to pull the data off the 8mm tapes and get them onto a DLT drive. Five years after that I tried to restore the DLT drive data (to move them onto an LTO drive) but was told by the software manufacturer (who is still a major player in this arena) that the current version of my $300 archival software no longer controls the older DLT drive, and that I would have to pay an extra $200+ to get the DLT data converted to LTO. When I told them about my old 8mm tapes the kid on the other end of the line practically laughed in my face. Needless to say I got my old machine out of the cupboard, fired it right up, got out my original 8mm tapes (which I still have in storage) and did it all again myself, this time from 8mm to LTO, for nothing. But as you can see, this means holding on not only to the tapes themselves, but also to a viable recorder/player and the controlling software that works with that player. For as many years as you need to keep your storage going, or at least to get you to the next level. Back then 8mm was the thing. Then DLT. Then LTO Now it's LTO3, soon to be LTO4. Everybody swears backwards compatibility with their systems, but only a few actually deliver it (without charging extra, that is). Good thing is this: all those ole 8mm tapes (around 60 of them)? The data from them fits into a couple of LTO2 tapes. And probably just a tiny portion of the next generation of archival storage.. I tend to use the third newest computer in my collection for backups, pretty much dedicated to it, BTW, so I don't get frustrated with backup and retrieval times. The newest one is usually on editing and render intensive work, then the second one is media management, ingest and outputs. So don't junk your old computers!