Why I closed this "hiss" thread at DVinfo.net

Mike Rehmus · April 22nd, 2003, 02:25 PM

Peter wrote me an email and expressed his displeasure about my closing of his posting on VX2000 Hiss.

This is an answer to Peter and an explanation of my postion.

I gave Peter a very precise and high-speed answer in my reply when I referred him to 2 simple search actions that would give him all of the archive information on this site and, indeed, on most of the Internet. Much faster than waiting for us to repost the information.

What I invited Peter to do was to read the posted information and then come back and ask any unanswered questions. I think that is fair to him and everyone who frequents this group.

Everyone has some limit to the time they can spend perusing this site. In this case, since I believe the answers to his question have already been posted, it is simple and more economical for everyone if I point him (and any other interested person) in the proper direction.

I think I have a responsibility to keep the group moving forward. Everyone has a limited amount of time and if we always spend time and energy covering the same ground time-after-time, then the group's energy gets dissipated and we don't move forward towards a deeper understanding of the cameras.

If I phrased my response such that I've insulted Peter, then I appologize for the tactless phrasing but not for the message.

Chris Hurd · April 22nd, 2003, 03:04 PM

Thanks, Mike.

Something currently in development on our message boards which may alleviate this issue in the near future is a "Frequently Asked Questions" notice at the top of the forum list. We currently have one in our Taking Care of Business section (see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=8725 for details).

A similar FAQ for each of our camera boards is in the planning stages... it doesn't have to go into great detail; just the most basic, common questions which are well documented, such as the numerous "hiss" threads that Mike refers to.

An important concept here on DV Infon Net is our "no such thing as a stupid question" policy... we tackle everything, from the most basic queries to very complex questions and everything in between. But the other part of that deal is that we do have a "frequently asked questions" policy, so before posting, try our SEARCH feature... because chances are strong that your subject (in this case, the VX2000 "hiss" issue) has been discussed previously and a wealth of information already exists within our database.

Hope this helps,

Harry Settle · April 22nd, 2003, 04:33 PM

I understand totaly why the thread was closed, and thanks for the added link information in your answer, Mike. However, in going to those links, I became kind of frustrated at most of the answers to the hiss problem.

While, lately, most of the posts are recommending turning down the sound in manual, most of the answers in the links I just read recommended leaving the sound in auto, and regulating with a beachtek or similar. I promptly bit a pencil in half.

I'm still wandering through some of those links though.

Thanks again

Nathan Gifford · April 22nd, 2003, 07:01 PM

Good idea Mike. The hiss issue and its resolution are old, at least in relation to the evolution of PCs ;-)

Peter Kulka · April 22nd, 2003, 09:43 PM

Thanks Nathan Gifford and all others for very short answer, but as
Harry Settle wrote I still do not understand what is exact problem and solutions.
Maybe I'm retarded or so, but I did read all (I mean ALL) threads about it and I'm very confused from all answers.
Can somebody from our profi staff write finalized answer on this HISS problem and place end on this issue on Info Net forum?
It's very easy to write "SEARCH", but to get answer from all this posts is very hard (at least for me).
If somebody can write in post bla bla bla and then SEARCH, I think it will take less time for him to just answer question if he is smart enough to do so.
Please do not take this personally; this is my personal view on this issue.

Jeff Donald · April 22nd, 2003, 09:59 PM

Audio is a subjective medium. What works for me and my ears may not work for your ears. Experimentation is usually required to find what works best for your ears, your microphone, your camera etc. Try some of the suggestions in the posts you have read. There is no definitive answer, every situation is different. I have different audio problems when I try to record bird calls than I do when I record dialog. Different microphones, different tonal ranges, different ambiance etc. Try some different things and post back your results.

If you really want it fixed and not just masked, do what the BBC does. Send your camera (and around $300) to GlenSound and then buy their suggested preamp from Shure or sound Devices (around $400). Problem solved.

Peter Kulka · April 22nd, 2003, 10:35 PM

Thanks Jeff Donald for his extremely wide answer.
I think there is also one solution besides modifying VX2000. Just to sell VX2000 and get DVX100.
I'm sure that none of these recommendations will solve our problem with HISS issue. As far as technical understanding and prevention.
As I understand the problem, any preamp will do its job, because if you will get at least gain 2X from preamp, this mean in manual mode you do not need set manual gain to more than 50% and this will solve HISS problem. According one of posts hiss is noticeable above 50% of manual gain adjustment.
This kind of answer I was expecting from "professionals".

Chris Hurd · April 22nd, 2003, 10:37 PM

I think one important feature of the forthcoming FAQ for this forum should be some sort of "definitive response" (if there is such a thing) regarding the so-called hiss issue. It should be written from a cold-call perspective, that is, written for someone who is brand new to the camera and knows nothing about it expect "I've heard there's a problem." That might be the best approach.

Thanks to everyone for the responses here.

Frank Granovski · April 22nd, 2003, 11:09 PM

Peter, the "BBC fix" is the best solution. It entails changing some wires around, adding a Glenbox SLR adaptor and a Sennheiser ME66/K6. If this is good enough for BBC broadcast, it should be good enough for most of us---well, maybe it's overkill for many of us. Here is a place that is authorized to perform the "BBC Fix."

http://www.global-dvc.org

Mike Rehmus · April 22nd, 2003, 11:30 PM

Peter and I are exchanging email. Here is what I suggested

I think you might find a DVMagazine column by Jay Rose most informative on sound quality in camcorders. If you look at www.dv.com and review his columns for the past 12 months, you will find his report on sound quality from camcorders.

The bottom line is they are not too good. Even the best camcorders.

To actually measure hiss in any accurate manner, you will have to have access to some fairly sophisticated test equipment. There is no easy way to do it.

You might get an approximation if you shorted the inputs on the microphone socket and then recorded tape while you adjust the level control on the camera from minimum to maximum. Then you might be able to use something like Sound Forge to measure the hiss.

If you don't have Sound Forge or an equivalent sound editor, you could make a short AVI file and then separate the sound from the video and send it to me. I can attempt to make the measurements for you.

Harry Settle · April 23rd, 2003, 09:16 PM

Hey, Mike! Thanks a lot!

I inadvertantly found the answer to the "hiss" in my VX's that I thought that I had gotten rid of, in one of the links you referred to above.

It's in one of the links that refers to the "Sony Fix", which amounted to a warning about the quality of the headphone sound, and that it shouldn't be trusted. (I have seen this warning scoffed at in other threads) I took out my cameras, one more time, and discovered that somewhere along the line I had turned up the headphone volume to the max. (controlled by the buttons on the lcd panel) I turned down the sound to the headphones, and immediately went back to the cleaner sound that I was expecting. That, along with shifting to manual level control, set to about 50% is working very well.

Thanks once again.

April 22nd, 2003, 02:25 PM	#1
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Why I closed this hiss thread Peter wrote me an email and expressed his displeasure about my closing of his posting on VX2000 Hiss. This is an answer to Peter and an explanation of my postion. I gave Peter a very precise and high-speed answer in my reply when I referred him to 2 simple search actions that would give him all of the archive information on this site and, indeed, on most of the Internet. Much faster than waiting for us to repost the information. What I invited Peter to do was to read the posted information and then come back and ask any unanswered questions. I think that is fair to him and everyone who frequents this group. Everyone has some limit to the time they can spend perusing this site. In this case, since I believe the answers to his question have already been posted, it is simple and more economical for everyone if I point him (and any other interested person) in the proper direction. I think I have a responsibility to keep the group moving forward. Everyone has a limited amount of time and if we always spend time and energy covering the same ground time-after-time, then the group's energy gets dissipated and we don't move forward towards a deeper understanding of the cameras. If I phrased my response such that I've insulted Peter, then I appologize for the tactless phrasing but not for the message. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

April 22nd, 2003, 03:04 PM	#2
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	Thanks, Mike. Something currently in development on our message boards which may alleviate this issue in the near future is a "Frequently Asked Questions" notice at the top of the forum list. We currently have one in our Taking Care of Business section (see http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/showthrea...&threadid=8725 for details). A similar FAQ for each of our camera boards is in the planning stages... it doesn't have to go into great detail; just the most basic, common questions which are well documented, such as the numerous "hiss" threads that Mike refers to. An important concept here on DV Infon Net is our "no such thing as a stupid question" policy... we tackle everything, from the most basic queries to very complex questions and everything in between. But the other part of that deal is that we do have a "frequently asked questions" policy, so before posting, try our SEARCH feature... because chances are strong that your subject (in this case, the VX2000 "hiss" issue) has been discussed previously and a wealth of information already exists within our database. Hope this helps, __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 22nd, 2003, 04:33 PM	#3
Harry Settle Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bemidji, MN Posts: 276	I understand totaly why the thread was closed, and thanks for the added link information in your answer, Mike. However, in going to those links, I became kind of frustrated at most of the answers to the hiss problem. While, lately, most of the posts are recommending turning down the sound in manual, most of the answers in the links I just read recommended leaving the sound in auto, and regulating with a beachtek or similar. I promptly bit a pencil in half. I'm still wandering through some of those links though. Thanks again __________________ "DOH"!!!

April 22nd, 2003, 07:01 PM	#4
Nathan Gifford Wrangler Join Date: Sep 2001 Location: Tickfaw, LA Posts: 1,217	Good idea Mike. The hiss issue and its resolution are old, at least in relation to the evolution of PCs ;-) __________________ Nathan Gifford Southern Cyclist Magazine & Productions For quick answers try our Search! To see me and Rob Lohman click here

April 22nd, 2003, 09:43 PM	#5
Peter Kulka Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Newark, CA Posts: 34	VX2000 hiss Thanks Nathan Gifford and all others for very short answer, but as Harry Settle wrote I still do not understand what is exact problem and solutions. Maybe I'm retarded or so, but I did read all (I mean ALL) threads about it and I'm very confused from all answers. Can somebody from our profi staff write finalized answer on this HISS problem and place end on this issue on Info Net forum? It's very easy to write "SEARCH", but to get answer from all this posts is very hard (at least for me). If somebody can write in post bla bla bla and then SEARCH, I think it will take less time for him to just answer question if he is smart enough to do so. Please do not take this personally; this is my personal view on this issue.

April 22nd, 2003, 09:59 PM	#6
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	Audio is a subjective medium. What works for me and my ears may not work for your ears. Experimentation is usually required to find what works best for your ears, your microphone, your camera etc. Try some of the suggestions in the posts you have read. There is no definitive answer, every situation is different. I have different audio problems when I try to record bird calls than I do when I record dialog. Different microphones, different tonal ranges, different ambiance etc. Try some different things and post back your results. If you really want it fixed and not just masked, do what the BBC does. Send your camera (and around $300) to GlenSound and then buy their suggested preamp from Shure or sound Devices (around $400). Problem solved. __________________ Jeff Donald Carpe Diem Search DVinfo.net for quick answers \| Where to Buy? From the best in the business: DVinfo.net sponsors

April 22nd, 2003, 10:35 PM	#7
Peter Kulka Regular Crew Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Newark, CA Posts: 34	VX2000 hiss Thanks Jeff Donald for his extremely wide answer. I think there is also one solution besides modifying VX2000. Just to sell VX2000 and get DVX100. I'm sure that none of these recommendations will solve our problem with HISS issue. As far as technical understanding and prevention. As I understand the problem, any preamp will do its job, because if you will get at least gain 2X from preamp, this mean in manual mode you do not need set manual gain to more than 50% and this will solve HISS problem. According one of posts hiss is noticeable above 50% of manual gain adjustment. This kind of answer I was expecting from "professionals".

April 22nd, 2003, 10:37 PM	#8
Chris Hurd Obstreperous Rex Join Date: Jan 2001 Location: San Marcos, TX Posts: 27,368 Images: 513	I think one important feature of the forthcoming FAQ for this forum should be some sort of "definitive response" (if there is such a thing) regarding the so-called hiss issue. It should be written from a cold-call perspective, that is, written for someone who is brand new to the camera and knows nothing about it expect "I've heard there's a problem." That might be the best approach. Thanks to everyone for the responses here. __________________ CH Search DV Info Net \| 20 years of DVi \| ...Tuesday is Soylent Green Day!

April 22nd, 2003, 11:09 PM	#9
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Peter, the "BBC fix" is the best solution. It entails changing some wires around, adding a Glenbox SLR adaptor and a Sennheiser ME66/K6. If this is good enough for BBC broadcast, it should be good enough for most of us---well, maybe it's overkill for many of us. Here is a place that is authorized to perform the "BBC Fix." http://www.global-dvc.org

April 22nd, 2003, 11:30 PM	#10
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Peter and I are exchanging email. Here is what I suggested I think you might find a DVMagazine column by Jay Rose most informative on sound quality in camcorders. If you look at www.dv.com and review his columns for the past 12 months, you will find his report on sound quality from camcorders. The bottom line is they are not too good. Even the best camcorders. To actually measure hiss in any accurate manner, you will have to have access to some fairly sophisticated test equipment. There is no easy way to do it. You might get an approximation if you shorted the inputs on the microphone socket and then recorded tape while you adjust the level control on the camera from minimum to maximum. Then you might be able to use something like Sound Forge to measure the hiss. If you don't have Sound Forge or an equivalent sound editor, you could make a short AVI file and then separate the sound from the video and send it to me. I can attempt to make the measurements for you. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

April 23rd, 2003, 09:16 PM	#11
Harry Settle Major Player Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Bemidji, MN Posts: 276	Hey, Mike! Thanks a lot! I inadvertantly found the answer to the "hiss" in my VX's that I thought that I had gotten rid of, in one of the links you referred to above. It's in one of the links that refers to the "Sony Fix", which amounted to a warning about the quality of the headphone sound, and that it shouldn't be trusted. (I have seen this warning scoffed at in other threads) I took out my cameras, one more time, and discovered that somewhere along the line I had turned up the headphone volume to the max. (controlled by the buttons on the lcd panel) I turned down the sound to the headphones, and immediately went back to the cleaner sound that I was expecting. That, along with shifting to manual level control, set to about 50% is working very well. Thanks once again. __________________ "DOH"!!!