Yikes! Bought PD170 - but the FX1?

Georg Herbet · March 31st, 2005, 05:45 AM

>>Oh, and there's one other difference which could really be significant... the Z1 also shoots PAL.<<

To me, as a person who has lived in Europe and may go back, this seems huge. I was dismayed when I started researching these cams to find out that there was an NTSC/PAL divide in the recording devices.

Georg Herbet · March 31st, 2005, 05:49 AM

>>I still believe as a wedding cam Georg made a VERY wise decision- and don't think others should taunt him making him feel like he didn't make a good investment (not you Boyd but Chris Murphy I was referring to).
<<

That's okay. I don't mind this at all. I'm still within the return period for the PD170. It *is* a nice cam, I can testity to that. But I do sense that I've purchased at the end of a product cycle -- which is not always a bad thing (bugs having had a chance to get worked out) -- but it's not so good purchasing at the end of a *technology cycle,* when the succeeding technology is due to make the preceding one obsolete. That seems to be where we find ourselves now.

But I have always been disgusted at the low resolution of NTSC/SD. I got my first taste of just how bad it looks when I lived in Europe and saw the markedly better definition of their PAL screens.

George Creasman · March 31st, 2005, 08:12 PM

I recently bought the PD170 also, and asked myself the same questions (took a long hard look at the Z-1)....I decided to stay with the 170, in about 2-3 years, assuming HDV starts taking over as expected, I plan to update (new camera, new computer with new HW/SW to handle the HDV, and let's not forget a new HD monitor) ...but for now, for ME, it makes more sense to stay with DV....heck, maybe by then there will be a 3 chip 2/3" HDV (or maybe even true HD)cam with some decent glass on it for a reasonable price?!?...

Georg Herbet · April 1st, 2005, 05:07 AM

George, a bit unrelated, but how loud is your PD170's tape drive when recording? Is the mic picking up the hum?

Leslie Wand · April 1st, 2005, 06:11 AM

is anyone asking for hd? do people have 16:9 sets? what's it being edited on?

i'm a bit out of the loop nowadays, but from what i can gather, it seems the only interest really being generated is hype.

i've never gone with the first generation of anything (incl. digibeta when it first came out). let the others have the nightmares....

170 and still happy

leslie

Hugh DiMauro · April 1st, 2005, 11:06 AM

It's easy to get excited about the new HD technology. I'm the biggest sucker for well-designed ad layouts. When I saw the color inserts listing the specs for the Z1U, I grabbed the nearest box of tissue. THAT was my next camera. Then, like the male prostitute I am, I saw the pictures of the new, under $10,000.00 JVC high def cam with interchangeable lenses, the Z1U instantly became the ex-girlfriend and I started courting fantasies about the JVC. I tore the heart out of myself fantasizing about being able to play with the big boys.

Guess what? I took a deep breath, gave myself a maturity pep talk and realized that I can make beautiful images with my PD 170 and XL1s. After all, isn't that what DV Info is all about?

Georg, I understand your frustration but believe me, you are sitting pretty with your new 170. Make beautiful pictures. Light well. Compose your shots well. Direct your actors well. Edit well.

Fare Thee Well.

Matt Stahley · April 1st, 2005, 02:41 PM

I still love my VX2000! : )

Craig Seeman · April 1st, 2005, 07:20 PM

Just went to WEVA town hall NYC the other day. Boy was Sony and WEVA pushing the Z1.

Most of the audience wasn't buying it from my conversations.
Why?

No delivery medium. BluRay and HDDVD will be out by end of year but with format war and a good YEAR OR MORE before market penetration, clients needing it are going to be few. By then NEXT generation HDV will be out.

Z1 is poor low light performance. Not good for dark receptions

They claimed that clients will come back LATER when they finaly do buy HDTVs to get HD copies. I'd say that's either not very likely nor not really going to bring any serious additional income.

Think of it this way. Figure around $9000 for Z1 and the HDV deck. Is it going to bring you $9000 MORE of business to cover that cost (plus interest if you're buying on credit). Will you find that in two years the Z2 (or competitor) will have better low light performance, TRUE 24p, etc. for 1/3 lower price?

Yes HDV is the wave of the FUTURE. Give it a year or maybe two.

Glen Elliott · April 2nd, 2005, 12:10 AM

Yeah they were sure stuffing it down our throats during the Town Meeting huh! Btw, I was with that Philly cheering section. lol

Georg Herbet · April 2nd, 2005, 06:18 AM

>>is anyone asking for hd? do people have 16:9 sets? what's it being edited on?

i'm a bit out of the loop nowadays, but from what i can gather, it seems the only interest really being generated is hype.
<<

Leslie,

go into any electronics store these days. All the rage is HD and 16:9 tvs. They're expensive, and not everyone has one, but almost everyone wants one.

So, given that we all but know the future, the question filmers have to ask themselves is this: do we want to be ready for that future, future-proof our investments and the films we currently make, or do we want to wait till everyone has HD equipment and play catch-up?

Georg Herbet · April 2nd, 2005, 06:21 AM

>>Georg, I understand your frustration but believe me, you are sitting pretty with your new 170. Make beautiful pictures. Light well. Compose your shots well. Direct your actors well. Edit well.
<<

Hugh, I'm well impressed with this 170. The quality of images I can take with it far surpasses what I had with the GL2. Frankly, I'll not know what I'm missing (yet) with the Z1 or FX1, since I doubt I'll get one. But those who have them are not exactly pining for the good old days. Know what I mean? So the question is for a new buyer (as I was), which is the wiser move? The 170 is great, but the wiser move may have been the FX1.

Maurice Ali · April 2nd, 2005, 08:51 AM

You are experiencing nothing more than "buyers remorse". I had the same thing but could not wait and I really do not regret going with a proven product with all the bugs worked out (including the hiss problem). The FX1 had a "recall" already due to an audio problem.....expect more. As another example I purchased a Nikon D70 when it first came out and now wait in terror for the ominous blinking green light.....which may or may not appear before the warranty wears out. It was the camera to get for a few months and now..... This will happen with the Sony HD cameras too..... The reality is that these are small purchases in video land not life and death decisions. I am waiting on a certification number (up here in Canada) on my first infomercial I shot and will have to convert DVCAM into Digital Betacam or Beta SP (with closed captioning at 175.00 per half hour no less). This is new stuff for me, but it puts things into reality.

Maybe the best thing to do is simply avoid - for the time being - those discussions where they just pattle about the latest gizmos as opposed to making video that has meaning.....no flame on anyone here. This discussion will have little relevance in a few years no matter what purchase you make - there is more to life and video producing than this issue.....trust me on this!

The only people who seem to come up to me on this issue in real life are the venders that sell the product.....

Georg Herbet · April 2nd, 2005, 10:07 AM

Maurice, don't worry. No tunnel vision here. No buyer's remorse, either. Forums such as this are, after all, about the topics we're discussing. Don't assume people don't have lives outside of what you read here.

Craig Seeman · April 2nd, 2005, 10:13 AM

People buying the FX1 and Z1 now will, IMHO, be the ones playing catch up. They will have spent between $3700-$5900 for a camera that will probably be like the VX1000 is compared to the VX2100 (or PD-170) a year or so from now. At the point HDTV and BluRay/HDDVD will have penetrated they will be shooting with older cameras while their competitors will be buying the newer FX2 /Z2 or whatever Panasonic and Canon have out at that point.

Unless you can make back the costs of the camera and then some in the next year . . . and the demand is NOT THERE NOW, you'll be "bleeding edge" rather than "ahead."

Unless you're shooting something that is going to have a LOOONG LIFESPAN (TV show for syndication for example) you won't gain anything.

If you're shooting a Movie or Doc that you HOPE will have future value maybe it's a worthwhile purchase. Heck for those, you probably would benefit NOW by shooting HDV. That's not the majority of us though.

Corporate videos, local cable spots, even weddings just don't have a long lifespan. I doubt that many clients will come back and spend more than a few bucks to reconvert weddings to HD. Even if you're doing $5000 weddings (and these are the folks who might have an HDTV on the horrizon) do you think they'll plunk down another grand 2 years from now for a new version? Maybe more like $100. Is that $100 really worth spending upwards of 9 Grand NOW for HDV camera and deck?

In this case, NEXT YEAR'S HDV camera will be better and more appropriate and profitable purchase when that time comes.

Boyd Ostroff · April 2nd, 2005, 10:21 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Georg Herbet : Don't assume people don't have lives outside of what you read here. -->>>

Well said Georg!

April 1st, 2005, 11:06 AM	#21
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Don't Fret, Georg It's easy to get excited about the new HD technology. I'm the biggest sucker for well-designed ad layouts. When I saw the color inserts listing the specs for the Z1U, I grabbed the nearest box of tissue. THAT was my next camera. Then, like the male prostitute I am, I saw the pictures of the new, under $10,000.00 JVC high def cam with interchangeable lenses, the Z1U instantly became the ex-girlfriend and I started courting fantasies about the JVC. I tore the heart out of myself fantasizing about being able to play with the big boys. Guess what? I took a deep breath, gave myself a maturity pep talk and realized that I can make beautiful images with my PD 170 and XL1s. After all, isn't that what DV Info is all about? Georg, I understand your frustration but believe me, you are sitting pretty with your new 170. Make beautiful pictures. Light well. Compose your shots well. Direct your actors well. Edit well. Fare Thee Well. __________________ Interesting, if true. And interesting anyway.

March 31st, 2005, 05:45 AM	#16
Georg Herbet Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Burbank Posts: 81	>>Oh, and there's one other difference which could really be significant... the Z1 also shoots PAL.<< To me, as a person who has lived in Europe and may go back, this seems huge. I was dismayed when I started researching these cams to find out that there was an NTSC/PAL divide in the recording devices.

March 31st, 2005, 05:49 AM	#17
Georg Herbet Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Burbank Posts: 81	>>I still believe as a wedding cam Georg made a VERY wise decision- and don't think others should taunt him making him feel like he didn't make a good investment (not you Boyd but Chris Murphy I was referring to). << That's okay. I don't mind this at all. I'm still within the return period for the PD170. It is a nice cam, I can testity to that. But I do sense that I've purchased at the end of a product cycle -- which is not always a bad thing (bugs having had a chance to get worked out) -- but it's not so good purchasing at the end of a technology cycle, when the succeeding technology is due to make the preceding one obsolete. That seems to be where we find ourselves now. But I have always been disgusted at the low resolution of NTSC/SD. I got my first taste of just how bad it looks when I lived in Europe and saw the markedly better definition of their PAL screens.

March 31st, 2005, 08:12 PM	#18
George Creasman New Boot Join Date: Nov 2004 Location: Birmingham, AL. Posts: 11	I recently bought the PD170 also, and asked myself the same questions (took a long hard look at the Z-1)....I decided to stay with the 170, in about 2-3 years, assuming HDV starts taking over as expected, I plan to update (new camera, new computer with new HW/SW to handle the HDV, and let's not forget a new HD monitor) ...but for now, for ME, it makes more sense to stay with DV....heck, maybe by then there will be a 3 chip 2/3" HDV (or maybe even true HD)cam with some decent glass on it for a reasonable price?!?...

April 1st, 2005, 05:07 AM	#19
Georg Herbet Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Burbank Posts: 81	George, a bit unrelated, but how loud is your PD170's tape drive when recording? Is the mic picking up the hum?

April 1st, 2005, 06:11 AM	#20
Leslie Wand Trustee Join Date: Mar 2004 Location: upper hunter, australia Posts: 1,410	is anyone asking for hd? do people have 16:9 sets? what's it being edited on? i'm a bit out of the loop nowadays, but from what i can gather, it seems the only interest really being generated is hype. i've never gone with the first generation of anything (incl. digibeta when it first came out). let the others have the nightmares.... 170 and still happy leslie

April 1st, 2005, 02:41 PM	#22
Matt Stahley Major Player Join Date: Jun 2002 Location: Waynesboro, PA Posts: 648	I still love my VX2000! : )

April 1st, 2005, 07:20 PM	#23
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Just went to WEVA town hall NYC the other day. Boy was Sony and WEVA pushing the Z1. Most of the audience wasn't buying it from my conversations. Why? No delivery medium. BluRay and HDDVD will be out by end of year but with format war and a good YEAR OR MORE before market penetration, clients needing it are going to be few. By then NEXT generation HDV will be out. Z1 is poor low light performance. Not good for dark receptions They claimed that clients will come back LATER when they finaly do buy HDTVs to get HD copies. I'd say that's either not very likely nor not really going to bring any serious additional income. Think of it this way. Figure around $9000 for Z1 and the HDV deck. Is it going to bring you $9000 MORE of business to cover that cost (plus interest if you're buying on credit). Will you find that in two years the Z2 (or competitor) will have better low light performance, TRUE 24p, etc. for 1/3 lower price? Yes HDV is the wave of the FUTURE. Give it a year or maybe two.

April 2nd, 2005, 12:10 AM	#24
Glen Elliott Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Philadelphia, PA Posts: 2,898	Yeah they were sure stuffing it down our throats during the Town Meeting huh! Btw, I was with that Philly cheering section. lol

April 2nd, 2005, 06:18 AM	#25
Georg Herbet Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Burbank Posts: 81	>>is anyone asking for hd? do people have 16:9 sets? what's it being edited on? i'm a bit out of the loop nowadays, but from what i can gather, it seems the only interest really being generated is hype. << Leslie, go into any electronics store these days. All the rage is HD and 16:9 tvs. They're expensive, and not everyone has one, but almost everyone wants one. So, given that we all but know the future, the question filmers have to ask themselves is this: do we want to be ready for that future, future-proof our investments and the films we currently make, or do we want to wait till everyone has HD equipment and play catch-up?

April 2nd, 2005, 06:21 AM	#26
Georg Herbet Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Burbank Posts: 81	>>Georg, I understand your frustration but believe me, you are sitting pretty with your new 170. Make beautiful pictures. Light well. Compose your shots well. Direct your actors well. Edit well. << Hugh, I'm well impressed with this 170. The quality of images I can take with it far surpasses what I had with the GL2. Frankly, I'll not know what I'm missing (yet) with the Z1 or FX1, since I doubt I'll get one. But those who have them are not exactly pining for the good old days. Know what I mean? So the question is for a new buyer (as I was), which is the wiser move? The 170 is great, but the wiser move may have been the FX1.

April 2nd, 2005, 08:51 AM	#27
Maurice Ali New Boot Join Date: Jan 2005 Location: Toronto, Canada Posts: 14	You are experiencing nothing more than "buyers remorse". I had the same thing but could not wait and I really do not regret going with a proven product with all the bugs worked out (including the hiss problem). The FX1 had a "recall" already due to an audio problem.....expect more. As another example I purchased a Nikon D70 when it first came out and now wait in terror for the ominous blinking green light.....which may or may not appear before the warranty wears out. It was the camera to get for a few months and now..... This will happen with the Sony HD cameras too..... The reality is that these are small purchases in video land not life and death decisions. I am waiting on a certification number (up here in Canada) on my first infomercial I shot and will have to convert DVCAM into Digital Betacam or Beta SP (with closed captioning at 175.00 per half hour no less). This is new stuff for me, but it puts things into reality. Maybe the best thing to do is simply avoid - for the time being - those discussions where they just pattle about the latest gizmos as opposed to making video that has meaning.....no flame on anyone here. This discussion will have little relevance in a few years no matter what purchase you make - there is more to life and video producing than this issue.....trust me on this! The only people who seem to come up to me on this issue in real life are the venders that sell the product.....

April 2nd, 2005, 10:07 AM	#28
Georg Herbet Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2005 Location: Burbank Posts: 81	Maurice, don't worry. No tunnel vision here. No buyer's remorse, either. Forums such as this are, after all, about the topics we're discussing. Don't assume people don't have lives outside of what you read here.

April 2nd, 2005, 10:13 AM	#29
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	People buying the FX1 and Z1 now will, IMHO, be the ones playing catch up. They will have spent between $3700-$5900 for a camera that will probably be like the VX1000 is compared to the VX2100 (or PD-170) a year or so from now. At the point HDTV and BluRay/HDDVD will have penetrated they will be shooting with older cameras while their competitors will be buying the newer FX2 /Z2 or whatever Panasonic and Canon have out at that point. Unless you can make back the costs of the camera and then some in the next year . . . and the demand is NOT THERE NOW, you'll be "bleeding edge" rather than "ahead." Unless you're shooting something that is going to have a LOOONG LIFESPAN (TV show for syndication for example) you won't gain anything. If you're shooting a Movie or Doc that you HOPE will have future value maybe it's a worthwhile purchase. Heck for those, you probably would benefit NOW by shooting HDV. That's not the majority of us though. Corporate videos, local cable spots, even weddings just don't have a long lifespan. I doubt that many clients will come back and spend more than a few bucks to reconvert weddings to HD. Even if you're doing $5000 weddings (and these are the folks who might have an HDTV on the horrizon) do you think they'll plunk down another grand 2 years from now for a new version? Maybe more like $100. Is that $100 really worth spending upwards of 9 Grand NOW for HDV camera and deck? In this case, NEXT YEAR'S HDV camera will be better and more appropriate and profitable purchase when that time comes.

April 2nd, 2005, 10:21 AM	#30
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	<<<-- Originally posted by Georg Herbet : Don't assume people don't have lives outside of what you read here. -->>> Well said Georg!