sony pd 170

Craig Seeman · October 26th, 2004, 11:20 AM

I got to look at the Sony consumer HDV camera at the recent VideoMaker trade show in NJ. Although it doesn't record 24p it does to a simulated 24p on output. Sony rep said it doesn't lose resolution when doing that. Not sure how it does it though including progressive frames or 3/2 pull down, but a cursory glance at the effect looked convincing.

Bob Zimmerman · October 26th, 2004, 01:31 PM

How much will that cost Craig?

Bob Zimmerman · October 26th, 2004, 01:35 PM

Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD?

Frederic Segard · October 26th, 2004, 02:40 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD? -->>>

Highly doubtful!

Bob Zimmerman · October 26th, 2004, 06:18 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Segard : <<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD? -->>>

Highly doubtful! -->>>

So I should go ahead and just get the PD-170? When is the next big show that Sony will announce the new cameras?

I would like to have the 24 frames but I don't have to have it and I won't be able to afford $7,000.

Mike Rehmus · October 26th, 2004, 08:26 PM

If you need the 170 XLR and other features, then it isn't a bad buy. But if the specs of the consumer HDV camera appeal to you, then why not, for not much more money, get it?

You get an apparently effective 24 fps, real 16:9, DV and HDV and probably a few other goodies too.

Bob Zimmerman · October 26th, 2004, 11:10 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : If you need the 170 XLR and other features, then it isn't a bad buy. But if the specs of the consumer HDV camera appeal to you, then why not, for not much more money, get it?

You get an apparently effective 24 fps, real 16:9, DV and HDV and probably a few other goodies too. -->>>

I guess I'll wait to see what it's like. But I need a good camera not a consumer level one.

Craig Seeman · October 26th, 2004, 11:21 PM

Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs.

Bob Zimmerman · October 26th, 2004, 11:35 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Seeman : Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs. -->>>

Presenting the world’s first consumer 1080i high definition camcorder, the Sony Handycam® HDR-FX1. A revolution in form and function, the HDR-FX1 allows you to play and record interlaced high definition video at resolutions up to 1440 x 1080 for professional quality video with vivid colors and striking detail. It even offers the ability to switch to standard DV recording and playback as the situation warrants.

The HDR-FX1 features the Real-time HD Codec Engine, which offers professional-level MPEG2 video compression, and 14bit HD DXP (Digital Extended Processor) for increased processing speed. Images are captured on three chip Advanced HAD™ CCD system that provides increased detail and improved video performance without the color bleeding found in other system. Optical capabilities include a Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar® T* lens with 12x optical zoom and Super SteadyShot® image stabilization.

The HDR-FX1 offers an unprecedented amount of control to the user, including manual zoom, focus, and iris control. Picture Profile™ allows the user to create a number of preset video modes for a variety of shooting settings. Composing shots is easier than even with the 3.5" precision hybrid SwivelScreen™ LCD display1 and the extra-large electronic viewfinder.

Bob Zimmerman · October 26th, 2004, 11:37 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : <<<-- Originally posted by Craig Seeman : Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs. -->>>

Presenting the world’s first consumer 1080i high definition camcorder, the Sony Handycam® HDR-FX1. A revolution in form and function, the HDR-FX1 allows you to play and record interlaced high definition video at resolutions up to 1440 x 1080 for professional quality video with vivid colors and striking detail. It even offers the ability to switch to standard DV recording and playback as the situation warrants.

The HDR-FX1 features the Real-time HD Codec Engine, which offers professional-level MPEG2 video compression, and 14bit HD DXP (Digital Extended Processor) for increased processing speed. Images are captured on three chip Advanced HAD™ CCD system that provides increased detail and improved video performance without the color bleeding found in other system. Optical capabilities include a Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar® T* lens with 12x optical zoom and Super SteadyShot® image stabilization.

The HDR-FX1 offers an unprecedented amount of control to the user, including manual zoom, focus, and iris control. Picture Profile™ allows the user to create a number of preset video modes for a variety of shooting settings. Composing shots is easier than even with the 3.5" precision hybrid SwivelScreen™ LCD display1 and the extra-large electronic viewfinder. -->>>

Just got that from Sonystyle website. It looks kind of cheap to me. They list the price at $3,600.

Craig Seeman · October 27th, 2004, 08:52 AM

"cheap?"

Great price point. Be aware drawbacks are: No XLR, No independent control of the two audio channels, rated "4lux" not great in low light.

My additional concern. Given the HDV format, are there visible MPEG2 compression artifacts when shooting fast motion or moving the camera quickly in, high contrast or wide chroma "swing" subjects, etc.?

BTW even though the camera is a little bit heavier and wider than the PD170 it's got GREATLY improved ergonomics. You no longer have to open the LCD (Now placed towards the top front) to get to the menus. They're availble from the back of the camera. Cassette door now moved to were the LCD was - means you can continue to hand hold cam with right hand while you change tapes with left.

There will be a "pro" model at nearly twice the price. That's the camera I'll be looking at.

Business questions:

To spend $7G on a camera I'll have to increase my rate. Will clients be willing to pay that even if they're only shooting DV? BTW there are MANY improvements on this cam that affect DV (Sony's equivalent to Panny's cinegamma, the ability to store settings so you can prese zooms and rack focus points) too but that doesn't change the cost of buying it.

How many clients are going to ask and pay for HD given the limited number of TV sets out there and even more limited ways to deliver the final product. As a reminder 16x9 you see on DVDs and many 16x9 TV sets are NOT HD. Also some sets are only 720p and the current Sony HDV camera records only at 1080i (maybe this will be one of the additions to the pro camera).

Bob Zimmerman · October 27th, 2004, 09:47 AM

I'm sure it's not cheap, but compared to the pd-170 it looks cheaper. I plan on getting back into event work and I can't afford $7,000 or do I want to wait a year. But I was hoping Sony would upgrade the 170. This HD camera is not an upgrade to me it's a new camera.

Craig Seeman · October 27th, 2004, 10:42 AM

Saw the Sony HD consumer camera at VideoMaker Expo in NJ a couple of weeks ago. It was a small trade show so I got one on one hands on experience using the camera and the attention of two Sony reps who went through EVERY feature including allowing me to point the camera arround under ugly trade show lights.

Believe me it's sturdy and well designed. Not cheap at all! I suspect the Pro version will be even more so. My only design concern would be under what conditions could the LCD break off given the way it's anchored.

I would NOT consider it an "event" camera. Low light just not good enough. Sony reps were quite honest about that. I saw it first hand in the dark cornors of the trade show room. Then again if you have an "event" client who owns a HiDef TV set then they'll have to accept using lighting and pay the extra dollars. Problem is there's NO EASY WAY to deliver final product YET. Maybe a Sony Blue Ray HiDef DVD but then you'd have to have the burner, the media, and the client would have to have the HiDef DVD player ( I can't emphasize enough that's NOT the same as 16x9 which you can get now on consumer DVD players).

Be aware though, this consumer camera, EXCEPT for the low light issue, is an EXCELLENT improvment over the VX2100 in it's handling of miniDV. Sony equivalent of Panny 100 CineGamma and a NICE "pseudo" 24p out (it creates the 24p on PLAYBACK not record).

I suspect the pro model wil also do an even more excellent job with miniDV standard. I would hope that as part of that $7000 it'll handle low light in miniDV mode like the 170.

Business question would be - If you're primarily using miniDV standard (not HiDef) what camera would you get. The NEW Sony Camera can provide much of the look of the Panny 100 (neither is a low light camera) at a very similar price. Panny records 24p. Sony records HiDef 1080i. What you get depends on whether you have or can get clients who WANT and are willing to PAY for HiDef.

Next business question related to above. If next year's Sony Pro model looks as good at Panny 100 you have to think about the price difference. It's only worthwhile if you have HiDef clients who will PAY YOU a HIGHER RATE or increase business volume to recoup and profit from the cost.

Bob Zimmerman · October 27th, 2004, 11:13 AM

I plan on using DV. Wasn't thinking much about HD. But if the PD-170 was going to upgrade with 24p I would wait till it came out.

Right now $3,000 will be around my limit. Maybe alittle more in a few months if there is a PD-170 with a upgrade.

B&H emailed me a price on the PD-170 with the rebate of $2,800. I think thats a pretty good price.

Frederic Segard · October 28th, 2004, 05:27 AM

Bob,

Judging from Sony tendencies and its history, it is highly doubtful that Sony will update their PD170 to 24p, let alone 16:9. First of all, their CCDs are interline, not progressive, so this rules out simple firmware updates. I truly believe that the PD170 is their last DVCAM SD prosumer camcorder. While the PD170 will remain in their sales catalog, their new Z1 1080i camcorder will be their new crown jewel for the prosumer market. Will the FX1 or Z1 have 24p? As previously stated in an above post, it's highly doubtful. It would be nice, but since it’s not in the HDV spec…

October 26th, 2004, 08:26 PM	#21
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	If you need the 170 XLR and other features, then it isn't a bad buy. But if the specs of the consumer HDV camera appeal to you, then why not, for not much more money, get it? You get an apparently effective 24 fps, real 16:9, DV and HDV and probably a few other goodies too. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

October 27th, 2004, 10:42 AM	#28
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Sony "consumer" HiDef/DV camera Saw the Sony HD consumer camera at VideoMaker Expo in NJ a couple of weeks ago. It was a small trade show so I got one on one hands on experience using the camera and the attention of two Sony reps who went through EVERY feature including allowing me to point the camera arround under ugly trade show lights. Believe me it's sturdy and well designed. Not cheap at all! I suspect the Pro version will be even more so. My only design concern would be under what conditions could the LCD break off given the way it's anchored. I would NOT consider it an "event" camera. Low light just not good enough. Sony reps were quite honest about that. I saw it first hand in the dark cornors of the trade show room. Then again if you have an "event" client who owns a HiDef TV set then they'll have to accept using lighting and pay the extra dollars. Problem is there's NO EASY WAY to deliver final product YET. Maybe a Sony Blue Ray HiDef DVD but then you'd have to have the burner, the media, and the client would have to have the HiDef DVD player ( I can't emphasize enough that's NOT the same as 16x9 which you can get now on consumer DVD players). Be aware though, this consumer camera, EXCEPT for the low light issue, is an EXCELLENT improvment over the VX2100 in it's handling of miniDV. Sony equivalent of Panny 100 CineGamma and a NICE "pseudo" 24p out (it creates the 24p on PLAYBACK not record). I suspect the pro model wil also do an even more excellent job with miniDV standard. I would hope that as part of that $7000 it'll handle low light in miniDV mode like the 170. Business question would be - If you're primarily using miniDV standard (not HiDef) what camera would you get. The NEW Sony Camera can provide much of the look of the Panny 100 (neither is a low light camera) at a very similar price. Panny records 24p. Sony records HiDef 1080i. What you get depends on whether you have or can get clients who WANT and are willing to PAY for HiDef. Next business question related to above. If next year's Sony Pro model looks as good at Panny 100 you have to think about the price difference. It's only worthwhile if you have HiDef clients who will PAY YOU a HIGHER RATE or increase business volume to recoup and profit from the cost.

October 26th, 2004, 11:20 AM	#16
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	I got to look at the Sony consumer HDV camera at the recent VideoMaker trade show in NJ. Although it doesn't record 24p it does to a simulated 24p on output. Sony rep said it doesn't lose resolution when doing that. Not sure how it does it though including progressive frames or 3/2 pull down, but a cursory glance at the effect looked convincing.

October 26th, 2004, 01:31 PM	#17
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	How much will that cost Craig?

October 26th, 2004, 01:35 PM	#18
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD?

October 26th, 2004, 02:40 PM	#19
Frederic Segard Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 209	<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD? -->>> Highly doubtful!

October 26th, 2004, 06:18 PM	#20
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	<<<-- Originally posted by Frederic Segard : <<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : Do you think there are plans for a PD-170a or something that has 24 0r 25 frames without the HD? -->>> Highly doubtful! -->>> So I should go ahead and just get the PD-170? When is the next big show that Sony will announce the new cameras? I would like to have the 24 frames but I don't have to have it and I won't be able to afford $7,000.

October 26th, 2004, 11:10 PM	#22
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	<<<-- Originally posted by Mike Rehmus : If you need the 170 XLR and other features, then it isn't a bad buy. But if the specs of the consumer HDV camera appeal to you, then why not, for not much more money, get it? You get an apparently effective 24 fps, real 16:9, DV and HDV and probably a few other goodies too. -->>> I guess I'll wait to see what it's like. But I need a good camera not a consumer level one.

October 26th, 2004, 11:21 PM	#23
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs.

October 26th, 2004, 11:35 PM	#24
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	<<<-- Originally posted by Craig Seeman : Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs. -->>> Presenting the world’s first consumer 1080i high definition camcorder, the Sony Handycam® HDR-FX1. A revolution in form and function, the HDR-FX1 allows you to play and record interlaced high definition video at resolutions up to 1440 x 1080 for professional quality video with vivid colors and striking detail. It even offers the ability to switch to standard DV recording and playback as the situation warrants. The HDR-FX1 features the Real-time HD Codec Engine, which offers professional-level MPEG2 video compression, and 14bit HD DXP (Digital Extended Processor) for increased processing speed. Images are captured on three chip Advanced HAD™ CCD system that provides increased detail and improved video performance without the color bleeding found in other system. Optical capabilities include a Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar® T* lens with 12x optical zoom and Super SteadyShot® image stabilization. The HDR-FX1 offers an unprecedented amount of control to the user, including manual zoom, focus, and iris control. Picture Profile™ allows the user to create a number of preset video modes for a variety of shooting settings. Composing shots is easier than even with the 3.5" precision hybrid SwivelScreen™ LCD display1 and the extra-large electronic viewfinder.

October 26th, 2004, 11:37 PM	#25
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	<<<-- Originally posted by Bob Zimmerman : <<<-- Originally posted by Craig Seeman : Supposedly Sony will have a "Pro" version listing at around $7000 next year (NAB?). Given the price difference ($3700 for consumer version) I think it will include a bit more than XLRs. -->>> Presenting the world’s first consumer 1080i high definition camcorder, the Sony Handycam® HDR-FX1. A revolution in form and function, the HDR-FX1 allows you to play and record interlaced high definition video at resolutions up to 1440 x 1080 for professional quality video with vivid colors and striking detail. It even offers the ability to switch to standard DV recording and playback as the situation warrants. The HDR-FX1 features the Real-time HD Codec Engine, which offers professional-level MPEG2 video compression, and 14bit HD DXP (Digital Extended Processor) for increased processing speed. Images are captured on three chip Advanced HAD™ CCD system that provides increased detail and improved video performance without the color bleeding found in other system. Optical capabilities include a Carl Zeiss® Vario-Sonnar® T* lens with 12x optical zoom and Super SteadyShot® image stabilization. The HDR-FX1 offers an unprecedented amount of control to the user, including manual zoom, focus, and iris control. Picture Profile™ allows the user to create a number of preset video modes for a variety of shooting settings. Composing shots is easier than even with the 3.5" precision hybrid SwivelScreen™ LCD display1 and the extra-large electronic viewfinder. -->>> Just got that from Sonystyle website. It looks kind of cheap to me. They list the price at $3,600.

October 27th, 2004, 08:52 AM	#26
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	"cheap?" Great price point. Be aware drawbacks are: No XLR, No independent control of the two audio channels, rated "4lux" not great in low light. My additional concern. Given the HDV format, are there visible MPEG2 compression artifacts when shooting fast motion or moving the camera quickly in, high contrast or wide chroma "swing" subjects, etc.? BTW even though the camera is a little bit heavier and wider than the PD170 it's got GREATLY improved ergonomics. You no longer have to open the LCD (Now placed towards the top front) to get to the menus. They're availble from the back of the camera. Cassette door now moved to were the LCD was - means you can continue to hand hold cam with right hand while you change tapes with left. There will be a "pro" model at nearly twice the price. That's the camera I'll be looking at. Business questions: To spend $7G on a camera I'll have to increase my rate. Will clients be willing to pay that even if they're only shooting DV? BTW there are MANY improvements on this cam that affect DV (Sony's equivalent to Panny's cinegamma, the ability to store settings so you can prese zooms and rack focus points) too but that doesn't change the cost of buying it. How many clients are going to ask and pay for HD given the limited number of TV sets out there and even more limited ways to deliver the final product. As a reminder 16x9 you see on DVDs and many 16x9 TV sets are NOT HD. Also some sets are only 720p and the current Sony HDV camera records only at 1080i (maybe this will be one of the additions to the pro camera).

October 27th, 2004, 09:47 AM	#27
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	I'm sure it's not cheap, but compared to the pd-170 it looks cheaper. I plan on getting back into event work and I can't afford $7,000 or do I want to wait a year. But I was hoping Sony would upgrade the 170. This HD camera is not an upgrade to me it's a new camera.

October 27th, 2004, 11:13 AM	#29
Bob Zimmerman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2001 Location: Illinois Posts: 888	I plan on using DV. Wasn't thinking much about HD. But if the PD-170 was going to upgrade with 24p I would wait till it came out. Right now $3,000 will be around my limit. Maybe alittle more in a few months if there is a PD-170 with a upgrade. B&H emailed me a price on the PD-170 with the rebate of $2,800. I think thats a pretty good price.

October 28th, 2004, 05:27 AM	#30
Frederic Segard Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Montreal, Canada Posts: 209	Bob, Judging from Sony tendencies and its history, it is highly doubtful that Sony will update their PD170 to 24p, let alone 16:9. First of all, their CCDs are interline, not progressive, so this rules out simple firmware updates. I truly believe that the PD170 is their last DVCAM SD prosumer camcorder. While the PD170 will remain in their sales catalog, their new Z1 1080i camcorder will be their new crown jewel for the prosumer market. Will the FX1 or Z1 have 24p? As previously stated in an above post, it's highly doubtful. It would be nice, but since it’s not in the HDV spec…