VX9000 / DSR200 / DSR250 various topics

Shawn Mielke · September 13th, 2004, 07:06 PM

Thanks to you both, Don and Mike, for your input. This won't be an immediate purchase, no matter what I go with; more like early next year. $6k-$8k is quite a lot of money for me at this point, and planning for the step up to a system of that cost must for me start now. Your last post, Mike, is rather dead on with what I think and feel. I DO want the speed and options of real lenses and sophistication in manual control, as well as the total improvement in picture quality. But I will definitely go to a display room somewhere (Safer Seas is in San Raphael now) and get some hands-on, as part of my thought process. Simply going with a second PD170 is probably the safest, most reasonable way to go, in the short term, as a green green professional shooting things for which the PD170 is plenty suitable. But reason isn't everything in this life. As far as the DSr250 goes, I thought that maybe THAT would be the intermediary solution, but it just isn't different enough in cost from the DVC for me to feel solid enough about it...
Ya da ya da ya!

Again, if there are handbooks or other resources on ENG cams and lenses, etc, I'm all eyes and ears.

Thanks!

Shawn

Mike Rehmus · September 13th, 2004, 07:38 PM

If you ever find yourself down around Vallejo, give me a call and maybe we can hook up and you can 'play' with my DSR-300.

I paid $3500 for the camera body, had the lens but could have bought one for around $500 and paid $1800 for a Sony LiON charger and one each of the small, medium and large LiON batteries. Of course then you have to consider a larger tripod and a carrying bag. PortaBrace for about $300 and I just bought an OConnor tripod and sticks off of ebay for $600 plus about $400 in repair parts (lost bits) and I have a great tripod system. Used my old big Bogen for years before I did this.

Shawn Mielke · September 13th, 2004, 08:04 PM

Thanks for the offer! I will surely take you up on that sometime. The dsr390 was one of my first loves (however long distant) in the world of shoulder cams. Takes me back to good ol' '03, when the bug had only just begun to bite hard. Ouch! Ouch!
:-]

Miklos Xuereb · September 15th, 2004, 12:06 PM

Hi guys,

I am in the process of buying a new camera but i don't know which one to buy between the mentioned cameras. Basically my footages are going to be local documentaries, interviews etc.

BTW. Do you have any reviews re the Sony DSP-250.

Thanks

Aaron Koolen · September 15th, 2004, 02:37 PM

Miklos, I can't offer much insight, but have you also considered the Panasonic DVC200? It's in a similar price bracket, shoulder mounted ENG camera, with 1/2" chips. I've heard good things about it.

Aaron

Shawn Mielke · September 15th, 2004, 10:37 PM

Hi Miklos. I've recently been looking into the DSR250 as well. I can't think of specific reviews that I've come across, but doing a search of the camera here is a good start, as you probably already have. I would then go over to DV.COM and do the same. There are quite a few 250 users over there who have, over the last few years, posted their thoughts about the cam onto threads just like this one. Bill KC has good and interesting things to say, as does jerrycaz. They are usually having to compare it to other relatively affordable shoulder cams, such as the DVC200 or the DV5000, despite it's final product being much more like the PD150/PD170, but good info for you even so...
The fact that you've listed it with these progressive scan cams (rather than the PD170, the existence of which you surely must already be aware) must be meaningful in some way? I am interested in the camera that Aaron mentioned, the DVC200, so part of my response is to also suggest it. If you have an $8k budget for a cam, cheap lens, batteries, and VTR, and that's about it! Or $6k for a dsr250 package. (Tripod and lights?). I guess you might want to think about whether you want a shoulder cam, or progressive scan? The PD170 is going at a pretty good price right now through B&H, btw, $2900 or so. Not a lot of user feedback on the XL2 as of yet. The DVX100A would certainly serve you well, 24p or not, unless of course you wanted a shoulder cam...

Shawn

Miklos Xuereb · September 19th, 2004, 11:32 PM

Hi Guys,

Which batteries do you use with Sony DSR-250. I heard of Sony, IDX, Anton Bauer & Hawk Woods, but which are the best???

Thanks

Mike Rehmus · September 20th, 2004, 08:38 AM

That is sort of like asking which gum you like best. It is mainly a matter of personal taste.

I"ve always had very good luck with Sony batteries and I don't have to worry about compatibility at any level.

The best way to select a battery supplier is to first insure that they can supply the:

- battery chemistry you want
- capacity you want
- size you want
- weight you want
- mount you want

That the chargers are appropriate to your needs with regard to:

-charge speed
- # of batteries that are simultaneously charged (as opposed to how many can you hang on the charger)
- variety of input voltages to power the charger
- intelligence level of the charger
- can the charger also run the camera directly?

Robert Mitteg · September 20th, 2004, 02:47 PM

I disagree the previous post. It is not a matter of personal taste, it's a matter of which battery is better. AntonBauer makes high quality bateries that are much better than the Sony ones. Of course you pay what you get for, so AntonBauer is not cheap.

Regards.

Don Bloom · September 22nd, 2004, 01:35 PM

OK, I don't own one but a friend of mine and I have been having a discussion abiut the audio setup on the DSR250. He says you can not seperate the channels like you can on the PD150/170-Channel 1/2 and Channel 1. I believe you can, otherwise what good do 3 XLR inputs do you. I realize the front XLR is generally going to be used for the on cam mic and the 2 rear XLRs for handheld or wireless with only the capability of having 2 channels but the point is he feels that the audio track can't be seperated. Channel 1 and Channel 2.

DSR250 gurus what say you?

(There's a small wager riding on this :-)

Thanks Don B.

EDIT to Question.
What I'm asking is, "is it a mechanical switch or a menu item".
Perhaps that will clear up the question.
Don B

Mike Rehmus · September 22nd, 2004, 06:56 PM

You win. Ask him what the two separate level controls are for on the camera and them point him to page 54 of the camera manual.

Don Bloom · September 22nd, 2004, 08:46 PM

Thanks Mike,
Thats kind of what I figured but to be honest, never having used a 250 nor being able to see a quality pic of one, I just wanted to be sure before rubbing his nose....I mean tell him in a kind and gentle way he is wrong.

Thanks again,
Don B

Gustavo Godinho · October 2nd, 2004, 08:34 PM

I saw PD170 minimum illumination and it says 1 lux, while DSR250 says 2 lux with 18db. Is it correct? Why they´re different if the CCD size and both lens are almost the same? The PD170 minimum ilummination (1lux) isn´t with any gain?

Mike Rehmus · October 2nd, 2004, 08:59 PM

The numbers are at max gain for both cameras. The advantage of the 170 is that the noise level is lower, not that the picture is any 'brighter.'

The difference is that the image processing after the CCD seems to be better. Sony has made several conflicting statements about what they changed but their first statement (and the one I tend to believe) is that they improved the post-CCD image processing.

Just because the CCD size and lens are the same doesn't mean that the cameras should perform identically. There are other 1/3" cameras out there with similar lenses and inferior low-light performance.

Gustavo Godinho · October 2nd, 2004, 11:50 PM

Thanks, Mike.

Which one is better under low light situation: DSR-500 or PD-170? I´m asking ´cause I read this about DSR-500:

"Minimum Illumination: 0.5Lux with F1.4, Hyper gain (30dB+DPR) 0.8Lux with F1.8, Hyper gain (30dB+DPR)"

Ok, the big cam works with 0,5lux, but with a much higher gain. Using 18db, that is PD-170´s limit, DSR-500 would perform just a LITTLE better. Am I right?

September 13th, 2004, 07:06 PM	#151
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	Thanks to you both, Don and Mike, for your input. This won't be an immediate purchase, no matter what I go with; more like early next year. $6k-$8k is quite a lot of money for me at this point, and planning for the step up to a system of that cost must for me start now. Your last post, Mike, is rather dead on with what I think and feel. I DO want the speed and options of real lenses and sophistication in manual control, as well as the total improvement in picture quality. But I will definitely go to a display room somewhere (Safer Seas is in San Raphael now) and get some hands-on, as part of my thought process. Simply going with a second PD170 is probably the safest, most reasonable way to go, in the short term, as a green green professional shooting things for which the PD170 is plenty suitable. But reason isn't everything in this life. As far as the DSr250 goes, I thought that maybe THAT would be the intermediary solution, but it just isn't different enough in cost from the DVC for me to feel solid enough about it... Ya da ya da ya! Again, if there are handbooks or other resources on ENG cams and lenses, etc, I'm all eyes and ears. Thanks! Shawn __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

September 13th, 2004, 07:38 PM	#152
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	If you ever find yourself down around Vallejo, give me a call and maybe we can hook up and you can 'play' with my DSR-300. I paid $3500 for the camera body, had the lens but could have bought one for around $500 and paid $1800 for a Sony LiON charger and one each of the small, medium and large LiON batteries. Of course then you have to consider a larger tripod and a carrying bag. PortaBrace for about $300 and I just bought an OConnor tripod and sticks off of ebay for $600 plus about $400 in repair parts (lost bits) and I have a great tripod system. Used my old big Bogen for years before I did this. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

September 13th, 2004, 08:04 PM	#153
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	Thanks for the offer! I will surely take you up on that sometime. The dsr390 was one of my first loves (however long distant) in the world of shoulder cams. Takes me back to good ol' '03, when the bug had only just begun to bite hard. Ouch! Ouch! :-] __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

September 15th, 2004, 12:06 PM	#154
Miklos Xuereb New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Malta Posts: 7	DSR250 vs Canon XL2 vs DVX100 Hi guys, I am in the process of buying a new camera but i don't know which one to buy between the mentioned cameras. Basically my footages are going to be local documentaries, interviews etc. BTW. Do you have any reviews re the Sony DSP-250. Thanks

September 15th, 2004, 02:37 PM	#155
Aaron Koolen Trustee Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Auckland, New Zealand Posts: 1,727	Miklos, I can't offer much insight, but have you also considered the Panasonic DVC200? It's in a similar price bracket, shoulder mounted ENG camera, with 1/2" chips. I've heard good things about it. Aaron __________________ My Website Meat Free Media

September 15th, 2004, 10:37 PM	#156
Shawn Mielke Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Santa Rosa, California Posts: 745	Hi Miklos. I've recently been looking into the DSR250 as well. I can't think of specific reviews that I've come across, but doing a search of the camera here is a good start, as you probably already have. I would then go over to DV.COM and do the same. There are quite a few 250 users over there who have, over the last few years, posted their thoughts about the cam onto threads just like this one. Bill KC has good and interesting things to say, as does jerrycaz. They are usually having to compare it to other relatively affordable shoulder cams, such as the DVC200 or the DV5000, despite it's final product being much more like the PD150/PD170, but good info for you even so... The fact that you've listed it with these progressive scan cams (rather than the PD170, the existence of which you surely must already be aware) must be meaningful in some way? I am interested in the camera that Aaron mentioned, the DVC200, so part of my response is to also suggest it. If you have an $8k budget for a cam, cheap lens, batteries, and VTR, and that's about it! Or $6k for a dsr250 package. (Tripod and lights?). I guess you might want to think about whether you want a shoulder cam, or progressive scan? The PD170 is going at a pretty good price right now through B&H, btw, $2900 or so. Not a lot of user feedback on the XL2 as of yet. The DVX100A would certainly serve you well, 24p or not, unless of course you wanted a shoulder cam... Shawn __________________ Breakthrough In Grey Room

September 19th, 2004, 11:32 PM	#157
Miklos Xuereb New Boot Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: Malta Posts: 7	DSR250 Batteries Hi Guys, Which batteries do you use with Sony DSR-250. I heard of Sony, IDX, Anton Bauer & Hawk Woods, but which are the best??? Thanks

September 20th, 2004, 08:38 AM	#158
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	That is sort of like asking which gum you like best. It is mainly a matter of personal taste. I"ve always had very good luck with Sony batteries and I don't have to worry about compatibility at any level. The best way to select a battery supplier is to first insure that they can supply the: - battery chemistry you want - capacity you want - size you want - weight you want - mount you want That the chargers are appropriate to your needs with regard to: -charge speed - # of batteries that are simultaneously charged (as opposed to how many can you hang on the charger) - variety of input voltages to power the charger - intelligence level of the charger - can the charger also run the camera directly? __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

September 20th, 2004, 02:47 PM	#159
Robert Mitteg New Boot Join Date: Jul 2004 Location: Spain Posts: 23	AntonBauer I disagree the previous post. It is not a matter of personal taste, it's a matter of which battery is better. AntonBauer makes high quality bateries that are much better than the Sony ones. Of course you pay what you get for, so AntonBauer is not cheap. Regards.

September 22nd, 2004, 01:35 PM	#160
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	For anyone with a DSR250 OK, I don't own one but a friend of mine and I have been having a discussion abiut the audio setup on the DSR250. He says you can not seperate the channels like you can on the PD150/170-Channel 1/2 and Channel 1. I believe you can, otherwise what good do 3 XLR inputs do you. I realize the front XLR is generally going to be used for the on cam mic and the 2 rear XLRs for handheld or wireless with only the capability of having 2 channels but the point is he feels that the audio track can't be seperated. Channel 1 and Channel 2. DSR250 gurus what say you? (There's a small wager riding on this :-) Thanks Don B. EDIT to Question. What I'm asking is, "is it a mechanical switch or a menu item". Perhaps that will clear up the question. Don B

September 22nd, 2004, 06:56 PM	#161
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	You win. Ask him what the two separate level controls are for on the camera and them point him to page 54 of the camera manual. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

September 22nd, 2004, 08:46 PM	#162
Don Bloom Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Chicago, IL Posts: 6,609	Thanks Mike, Thats kind of what I figured but to be honest, never having used a 250 nor being able to see a quality pic of one, I just wanted to be sure before rubbing his nose....I mean tell him in a kind and gentle way he is wrong. Thanks again, Don B

October 2nd, 2004, 08:34 PM	#163
Gustavo Godinho Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Belém - Pa - Brazil Posts: 130	Best under low light situation: PD170 or DSR250? I saw PD170 minimum illumination and it says 1 lux, while DSR250 says 2 lux with 18db. Is it correct? Why they´re different if the CCD size and both lens are almost the same? The PD170 minimum ilummination (1lux) isn´t with any gain? __________________ lml

October 2nd, 2004, 08:59 PM	#164
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	The numbers are at max gain for both cameras. The advantage of the 170 is that the noise level is lower, not that the picture is any 'brighter.' The difference is that the image processing after the CCD seems to be better. Sony has made several conflicting statements about what they changed but their first statement (and the one I tend to believe) is that they improved the post-CCD image processing. Just because the CCD size and lens are the same doesn't mean that the cameras should perform identically. There are other 1/3" cameras out there with similar lenses and inferior low-light performance. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

October 2nd, 2004, 11:50 PM	#165
Gustavo Godinho Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Belém - Pa - Brazil Posts: 130	Thanks, Mike. Which one is better under low light situation: DSR-500 or PD-170? I´m asking ´cause I read this about DSR-500: "Minimum Illumination: 0.5Lux with F1.4, Hyper gain (30dB+DPR) 0.8Lux with F1.8, Hyper gain (30dB+DPR)" Ok, the big cam works with 0,5lux, but with a much higher gain. Using 18db, that is PD-170´s limit, DSR-500 would perform just a LITTLE better. Am I right? __________________ lml