Is this true about the PD150?? at DVinfo.net

Revolver1010 · August 3rd, 2002, 09:21 AM

I read in Sony's PD150 NTSC model manual that the camera only takes a picture every 1/15th of a second in progressive scan mode. Is this actually true or am I misunderstanding this? If it does then wouldn't it be recording at half the frame rate of normal?? It just seems insane to me they they'd put something out with such a loss in quality.

Revolver1010.

Barry Goyette · August 3rd, 2002, 11:17 AM

the manual is correct. the primary purpose of the progressive scan mode on the pd150 is for extracting clear still frames, or for use in web based video, which when the pd150 was released, typically saw frame rates of 15fps or lower (Today's codecs do a great job with 30fps).

Revolver1010 · August 3rd, 2002, 09:00 PM

Thanks for the info! But then again I also hear that a lot of DV film makers are now just shooting in interlace mode and turning it into progressive (de-interlacing) through software. Is there any difference to doing it this way other than time investment for software rendering?

Revolver1010.

Frank Granovski · August 4th, 2002, 03:06 AM

It's better to shoot in progressive/frame mode, instead of using a program to stick 2 fields together. Look at the new GL2 for good resolution, frame mode and audio.

Martin Munthe · August 4th, 2002, 04:57 AM

Or you might want to download the demo of Magic Bullet and try it on some PD150 footage. I shoot PAL and use Magic Bullet 25p and it looks great. I've compared the footage to real progressive IMX material and theres not that big difference. My choice would be:

1. Shoot real progressive (IMX, HDCAM, DVCPRO HD).
2. Deintelace through Magic Bullet AE plugin (and use a PAL camera).
3. Use faux progressive like Frame Movie Mode (Canons).
4. Deintelace through Magic Bullet (if shot in NTSC).

Barry Goyette · August 4th, 2002, 10:42 AM

I've used several "smart" deinterlacers, re:vision effects fieldskit is another good one, and they do a good job (my tests showed the footage to be almost indistinguishable with frame mode), however these programs take up some serious headroom, and it can take a long time to render even a short amount of footage.

I'm not sure if you are in the market for a camera, based on the question, but we've just completed some tests with the gl2 and pd150, and the footage is nearly interchangeable between the cameras ( with a few minor color and sharpness tweaks), so the gl2 is a good option, especially if you like the look of the frame mode.

Barry

Josh Bass · August 4th, 2002, 12:38 PM

This magic bullet business: You can select the frame rate? Or is that 25p only for PAL cameras?

Steve McDonald · August 12th, 2002, 05:52 AM

Yes, the 15-fps rate in progressive mode is what the NTSC PD150 produces. It's the same with the VX2000, the TRV900 and a couple other Sony 3-CCD models. It's obvious that this mode is intended to be used for still-frame capture and not for real-time playback. Since this progressive frame-rate has been used in these models for several years and everyone has been complaining about it all that time, it doesn't appear likely that Sony will change this soon. But, maybe the new Panasonic AG-DVX100 and the improved Canon GL2 will prompt them to produce a true progressive-scan model in this price class that has the 24p and 30p options??

Steve McDonald

Revolver1010 · August 12th, 2002, 08:19 AM

>>But, maybe the new Panasonic AG-DVX100<<

Let me ask something about 480p. Is 480p lower in resolution than 530 lines? Seeing 480p gives me the impression it's 480 lines but since I'm not familiar with the specs I think I may be misinterpreting it. By the way, I know it's progressive... just curious about the resolution.

Revolver1010.

Steve McDonald · August 12th, 2002, 08:24 PM

Revolver,

The figure of 530 lines is close to the theoretical maximum of horizontal resolution that the DV CoDec can carry in NTSC video. In most cases, it is lower than that, due to either the camera source not being able to generate that level or just the typical difference between theory and actual practice. The very best pro DV camcorders are probably putting out 515-520 lines of res, at best. All digital outputs from a DV camcorder, whether they are from a tape playback or sent directly from the camera section, without being recorded, are limited to that level of resolution, by the capacity of the CoDec.

Some analog-recording camcorders, with the same type of CCD block, may produce a direct-camera output of 700-800 lines of res, as the signal is not limited by a digital encoding capacity. However, the resolution of the analog tape playback, in standard-definition formats, is somewhat less than this.

Now, your reference to 480 lines involves a different aspect of video. NTSC video has 525 total horizontal scanning lines from which 480 create its visible picture. This latter number varies slightly with different display equipment. The other lines that are hidden, carry control information that regulates the scanning and its timing and carries operating data, such as timecode and camera settings, that can optionally be displayed onscreen. The figures 480p and 480i, are in reference to the actual number of visible picture scan lines and don't reflect the level of horizontal resolution. The 480p picture display, on special monitors, can look better than 480i, due to the advantage of progressive scanning, but doesn't necessarily carry any true extra resolution. Sometimes, 480p is labelled as either a high-definition
(HD) format or advanced-definition (AD), as opposed to 480i, which is standard-definition (SD).

The total number of pixels in the DV CoDec, is still another figure that has two representations, for either square pixels or rectangular ones, but that's another issue.

Steve McDonald

August 3rd, 2002, 09:21 AM	#1
Revolver1010 Registration incomplete -- contact admin Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 29	Is this true about the PD150?? I read in Sony's PD150 NTSC model manual that the camera only takes a picture every 1/15th of a second in progressive scan mode. Is this actually true or am I misunderstanding this? If it does then wouldn't it be recording at half the frame rate of normal?? It just seems insane to me they they'd put something out with such a loss in quality. Revolver1010.

August 4th, 2002, 04:57 AM	#5
Martin Munthe Major Player Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Stockholm, Sweden Posts: 331	Or you might want to download the demo of Magic Bullet and try it on some PD150 footage. I shoot PAL and use Magic Bullet 25p and it looks great. I've compared the footage to real progressive IMX material and theres not that big difference. My choice would be: 1. Shoot real progressive (IMX, HDCAM, DVCPRO HD). 2. Deintelace through Magic Bullet AE plugin (and use a PAL camera). 3. Use faux progressive like Frame Movie Mode (Canons). 4. Deintelace through Magic Bullet (if shot in NTSC). __________________ Martin Munthe VFX Supervisor/DP/Director

August 4th, 2002, 12:38 PM	#7
Josh Bass Slash Rules! Join Date: Apr 2002 Location: Houston, Texas Posts: 5,472	This magic bullet business: You can select the frame rate? Or is that 25p only for PAL cameras? __________________ The Bass' camerawork The Bass on IMDB

August 3rd, 2002, 11:17 AM	#2
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	the manual is correct. the primary purpose of the progressive scan mode on the pd150 is for extracting clear still frames, or for use in web based video, which when the pd150 was released, typically saw frame rates of 15fps or lower (Today's codecs do a great job with 30fps).

August 3rd, 2002, 09:00 PM	#3
Revolver1010 Registration incomplete -- contact admin Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 29	Thanks for the info! But then again I also hear that a lot of DV film makers are now just shooting in interlace mode and turning it into progressive (de-interlacing) through software. Is there any difference to doing it this way other than time investment for software rendering? Revolver1010.

August 4th, 2002, 03:06 AM	#4
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	It's better to shoot in progressive/frame mode, instead of using a program to stick 2 fields together. Look at the new GL2 for good resolution, frame mode and audio.

August 4th, 2002, 10:42 AM	#6
Barry Goyette Trustee Join Date: Oct 2001 Location: San Luis Obispo CA Posts: 1,195	I've used several "smart" deinterlacers, re:vision effects fieldskit is another good one, and they do a good job (my tests showed the footage to be almost indistinguishable with frame mode), however these programs take up some serious headroom, and it can take a long time to render even a short amount of footage. I'm not sure if you are in the market for a camera, based on the question, but we've just completed some tests with the gl2 and pd150, and the footage is nearly interchangeable between the cameras ( with a few minor color and sharpness tweaks), so the gl2 is a good option, especially if you like the look of the frame mode. Barry

August 12th, 2002, 05:52 AM	#8
Steve McDonald Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 366	Yes, the 15-fps rate in progressive mode is what the NTSC PD150 produces. It's the same with the VX2000, the TRV900 and a couple other Sony 3-CCD models. It's obvious that this mode is intended to be used for still-frame capture and not for real-time playback. Since this progressive frame-rate has been used in these models for several years and everyone has been complaining about it all that time, it doesn't appear likely that Sony will change this soon. But, maybe the new Panasonic AG-DVX100 and the improved Canon GL2 will prompt them to produce a true progressive-scan model in this price class that has the 24p and 30p options?? Steve McDonald

August 12th, 2002, 08:19 AM	#9
Revolver1010 Registration incomplete -- contact admin Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Brooklyn, NY Posts: 29	>>But, maybe the new Panasonic AG-DVX100<< Let me ask something about 480p. Is 480p lower in resolution than 530 lines? Seeing 480p gives me the impression it's 480 lines but since I'm not familiar with the specs I think I may be misinterpreting it. By the way, I know it's progressive... just curious about the resolution. Revolver1010.

August 12th, 2002, 08:24 PM	#10
Steve McDonald Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Eugene, Oregon Posts: 366	Revolver, The figure of 530 lines is close to the theoretical maximum of horizontal resolution that the DV CoDec can carry in NTSC video. In most cases, it is lower than that, due to either the camera source not being able to generate that level or just the typical difference between theory and actual practice. The very best pro DV camcorders are probably putting out 515-520 lines of res, at best. All digital outputs from a DV camcorder, whether they are from a tape playback or sent directly from the camera section, without being recorded, are limited to that level of resolution, by the capacity of the CoDec. Some analog-recording camcorders, with the same type of CCD block, may produce a direct-camera output of 700-800 lines of res, as the signal is not limited by a digital encoding capacity. However, the resolution of the analog tape playback, in standard-definition formats, is somewhat less than this. Now, your reference to 480 lines involves a different aspect of video. NTSC video has 525 total horizontal scanning lines from which 480 create its visible picture. This latter number varies slightly with different display equipment. The other lines that are hidden, carry control information that regulates the scanning and its timing and carries operating data, such as timecode and camera settings, that can optionally be displayed onscreen. The figures 480p and 480i, are in reference to the actual number of visible picture scan lines and don't reflect the level of horizontal resolution. The 480p picture display, on special monitors, can look better than 480i, due to the advantage of progressive scanning, but doesn't necessarily carry any true extra resolution. Sometimes, 480p is labelled as either a high-definition (HD) format or advanced-definition (AD), as opposed to 480i, which is standard-definition (SD). The total number of pixels in the DV CoDec, is still another figure that has two representations, for either square pixels or rectangular ones, but that's another issue. Steve McDonald