1/15th progressive question at DVinfo.net

Hugh DiMauro · September 11th, 2003, 02:36 PM

OKay, I must sound like a heel but I have to ask another question: If the PD 150's progressive scan only captures at 1/15th of a second as opposed to 1/30th of a second, how will the picture look at 1/15th of a second progressive? More juddery than 30p? This is a crucial question which will decide whether or not I buy the AG DVX or the PD 150. HELP!

Frank Granovski · September 11th, 2003, 03:13 PM

You mean, 15 frames per second, I suppose. How will it look? Choppy. Very choppy. Some call it the MTV look. :)

If progressive is what you want, don't look at the Sonys. Look at the DVX or cams with frame mode (XL1s, GL2, PV-DV953). If 24P is what you want, "the 24P film look," you have only 1 choice---unless you're planning on spending a bundle.

Federico Dib · September 11th, 2003, 06:05 PM

I´ve studied three years using the PD-150.. it´s truly a battle horse and can endure hundreds of student abuse and negligence and still give you great pictures... but forget about it´s progressive 15 fps... It´s just way too choppy.
I´m not really sure why is there... and that would be a good question.

I own a Canon XM-2 I love it.. and love the frame mode... Although it takes a little practice to avoid jaggy pictures...

But last weekend I got to play with the AG DVX... if I had the money I´d go for it... It´s great.. ít´s 24P is great.. you have to be carefull too not to get the jaggy... but the image quality is just great, and the overall usage of it... all it´s features... etc...

So If you are going for the progressive modes.. the Pana it´s the best....

Frank Granovski · September 11th, 2003, 06:31 PM

Federico, You have the PD150 PAL version, right? That's 12.5 frames per second (in progressive). :)

Hugh DiMauro · September 12th, 2003, 06:04 AM

You have helped me make my decision. Frank, you've clarified for me that the PD 150 progressive image will be choppy. You see, I use my XL1s for mostly wedding videography and some independent film stuff (hobby right now). But my bach aches after an hour with the XL1s. I like the frame/progressive scan mode on my XL1s and feel it is a must to shoot the entire wedding in frame/progressive mode because I take many many frame grabs of the wedding throughout the video and use them for different effects.

I was really leaning towards the PD 150 but if there's an easy way to get clear, unartifacted frame grabs from interlaced video through Vegas 4.0, hell I'd get the PD 150 in a second.

Any ideas?

Frank Granovski · September 12th, 2003, 11:38 AM

Hugh, why not give the GL2 a whirl for weddings? Or the DVX100? Both these cams are easy to hold for hand-held shots. I find the VX/PD150 rather awkward.

"Any ideas?"

Yes, the GL2 has 30P frame mode and the DVX100 has 30P. Both aren't bad with lower light either, but a light is always nice. There's lots of fellows using the GL2 for weddings here in Vancouver.

Federico Dib · September 12th, 2003, 12:05 PM

Frank:
I don´t own the PD-150 I used it on film school... but yeah.. that should be 12.5 fps, so even "choppier"... we never used that anyway.. it was just "unusable?"...

Hugh:
What Frank says... Either GL2 (XM2 over here) or the DVX100 are great cams... that will give you a good progressive-frame look.

If you are on a tight budget then the GL2 can give you the Frame mode like the Xl1... and it´s an unbeatable cam for the price... I just love mine...

But if you can come up with a few more dollars... (which you might since you are looking at the 150) go with the PANA... It will be more versatile when doing fiction and has a lot of features... incluiding most of what the 150 already has...

One thing though is that the 150 looks and feels more resistant to abuse... And that I´ve experienced.. but doing weddings and fiction doesn´t seem like a lot of abuse to any camera anyway...

Frank Granovski · September 12th, 2003, 12:21 PM

I always thought that the VX/PD is a well-built solid cam. But almost everyone wants progressive/frame mode it seems, even for weddings. I don't think you need progressive, though, for weddings and funerals. When you shoot these, you're are shooting for the client/s, and not for yourself.

Federico Dib · September 12th, 2003, 01:47 PM

Right, but Hugh did say he does "...mostly wedding videography and some independent film stuff (hobby right now)."

So he can turn the "progressive" off when he doesn´t need it... and still have it around for when doing some "film stuff". Also you never know when a client may ask for frame/prog look on their wedding.

Of course you can allways get the progressive/frame mode in post and get great results... But I hate rendering...

I think the VX/PD are great cams (remember I said we abused them in film scholl a few years ago) ... but they are few years old, and have no frame/progressive/ mode, so I would get the Panasonic if I had the money...

One thing is for sure If I was doing mostly ENG or adverse condition shooting... I´d go with the Sony... as they have proven to be very resistant and trustworthy... and I don´t think they have a match on this category...

Frank Granovski · September 12th, 2003, 01:54 PM

Quote:

I'd go with the Sony... as they have proven to be very resistant and trustworthy... and I don't think they have a match on this category...

Agreed. They are solid work-horses.

Hugh DiMauro · September 12th, 2003, 02:13 PM

Well boys, here's the thing: My eyeballs say PD 150 but my good common sense says DVX 100. Remember, I like progressive for weddings because I do alot of effects where, right in the middle of a shot, I will freeze frame the action, pan/crop and superimpose a silly title. The clients love it and it also makes for fantastic opening wedding video titles. If anyone can convince me that shooting with a PD150 (or the new PD170 which is out now) in DVCAM mode will allow me frame grabs without it shaking all over the place , hell, the Sony's for me. Listen, I used to get all hyped up about new products. The aggravation is just not worth it, losing sleep over 24p, 30p, frame mode, 1/15th progressive. It's enough to make a guy go crazy because you're so afraid of laying out $3,500.00 and finding out that the camera ain't doing it. Capisce? I will stay interlaced if the frame grab is steady. Look at the JVC Cineline cameras. NO progressive there and JVC is toting that baby as an interlaced cinema camera!

Hugh DiMauro · September 12th, 2003, 02:16 PM

Oh by the way, here's the poop on the new PD170

http://www.global-dvc.org/html/PD170.asp.

Mike Rehmus · September 12th, 2003, 02:43 PM

That page does not come up and they don't have it listed under any of their news stories.

I am more and more convinced that this is a hoax.

But I've been wrong before.

Sony Europe does not mention this in their IBC news on their web site.

There is a thread on the '170'. Please do not continue discussion on it in this thread.

Frank Granovski · September 12th, 2003, 07:10 PM

Hugh, I see what you mean. I also like to use progressive (and low shutter speeds) for effect, for weddings---for funeral's I keep it interlaced and morbid---that's probably why I'm twisted. You do enough funerals, and it takes its toll. Now don't laugh, the cams I mainly use are 2 old JVC GR-DVL9500U's, In PAL land they're called the GR-DVL9600 (DV--in/out). They have a 1/3" progressive scan CCD, and they perform very well in lower light. Sometimes I rent a Beachtek and mic to improve the audio---if they pay me enough. I had a couple of el-cheapo mics which I use to just plug in, but they've bit the bullet some time back.

Hugh DiMauro · September 15th, 2003, 12:31 PM

Frank:

YOU VIDEOTAPE FUNERALS? HAHAHAHHAHAH! How did you get that gig? Ohh myyy God! Is there a market for that? I'll do funerals in a second! Beats weddings!

September 11th, 2003, 02:36 PM	#1
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	1/15th progressive question OKay, I must sound like a heel but I have to ask another question: If the PD 150's progressive scan only captures at 1/15th of a second as opposed to 1/30th of a second, how will the picture look at 1/15th of a second progressive? More juddery than 30p? This is a crucial question which will decide whether or not I buy the AG DVX or the PD 150. HELP!

September 11th, 2003, 06:05 PM	#3
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	I´ve studied three years using the PD-150.. it´s truly a battle horse and can endure hundreds of student abuse and negligence and still give you great pictures... but forget about it´s progressive 15 fps... It´s just way too choppy. I´m not really sure why is there... and that would be a good question. I own a Canon XM-2 I love it.. and love the frame mode... Although it takes a little practice to avoid jaggy pictures... But last weekend I got to play with the AG DVX... if I had the money I´d go for it... It´s great.. ít´s 24P is great.. you have to be carefull too not to get the jaggy... but the image quality is just great, and the overall usage of it... all it´s features... etc... So If you are going for the progressive modes.. the Pana it´s the best.... __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

September 12th, 2003, 06:04 AM	#5
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Thank You All You have helped me make my decision. Frank, you've clarified for me that the PD 150 progressive image will be choppy. You see, I use my XL1s for mostly wedding videography and some independent film stuff (hobby right now). But my bach aches after an hour with the XL1s. I like the frame/progressive scan mode on my XL1s and feel it is a must to shoot the entire wedding in frame/progressive mode because I take many many frame grabs of the wedding throughout the video and use them for different effects. I was really leaning towards the PD 150 but if there's an easy way to get clear, unartifacted frame grabs from interlaced video through Vegas 4.0, hell I'd get the PD 150 in a second. Any ideas?

September 12th, 2003, 12:05 PM	#7
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	Frank: I don´t own the PD-150 I used it on film school... but yeah.. that should be 12.5 fps, so even "choppier"... we never used that anyway.. it was just "unusable?"... Hugh: What Frank says... Either GL2 (XM2 over here) or the DVX100 are great cams... that will give you a good progressive-frame look. If you are on a tight budget then the GL2 can give you the Frame mode like the Xl1... and it´s an unbeatable cam for the price... I just love mine... But if you can come up with a few more dollars... (which you might since you are looking at the 150) go with the PANA... It will be more versatile when doing fiction and has a lot of features... incluiding most of what the 150 already has... One thing though is that the 150 looks and feels more resistant to abuse... And that I´ve experienced.. but doing weddings and fiction doesn´t seem like a lot of abuse to any camera anyway... __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

September 12th, 2003, 01:47 PM	#9
Federico Dib Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Barcelona Posts: 312	Right, but Hugh did say he does "...mostly wedding videography and some independent film stuff (hobby right now)." So he can turn the "progressive" off when he doesn´t need it... and still have it around for when doing some "film stuff". Also you never know when a client may ask for frame/prog look on their wedding. Of course you can allways get the progressive/frame mode in post and get great results... But I hate rendering... I think the VX/PD are great cams (remember I said we abused them in film scholl a few years ago) ... but they are few years old, and have no frame/progressive/ mode, so I would get the Panasonic if I had the money... One thing is for sure If I was doing mostly ENG or adverse condition shooting... I´d go with the Sony... as they have proven to be very resistant and trustworthy... and I don´t think they have a match on this category... __________________ Messenger Boy : The Thessalonian you're fighting, he's the biggest man I've ever seen. I wouldn't want to fight him. Achilles : That is why no one will remember your name.

September 11th, 2003, 03:13 PM	#2
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	You mean, 15 frames per second, I suppose. How will it look? Choppy. Very choppy. Some call it the MTV look. :) If progressive is what you want, don't look at the Sonys. Look at the DVX or cams with frame mode (XL1s, GL2, PV-DV953). If 24P is what you want, "the 24P film look," you have only 1 choice---unless you're planning on spending a bundle.

September 11th, 2003, 06:31 PM	#4
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Federico, You have the PD150 PAL version, right? That's 12.5 frames per second (in progressive). :)

September 12th, 2003, 11:38 AM	#6
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Hugh, why not give the GL2 a whirl for weddings? Or the DVX100? Both these cams are easy to hold for hand-held shots. I find the VX/PD150 rather awkward. "Any ideas?" Yes, the GL2 has 30P frame mode and the DVX100 has 30P. Both aren't bad with lower light either, but a light is always nice. There's lots of fellows using the GL2 for weddings here in Vancouver.

September 12th, 2003, 12:21 PM	#8
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	I always thought that the VX/PD is a well-built solid cam. But almost everyone wants progressive/frame mode it seems, even for weddings. I don't think you need progressive, though, for weddings and funerals. When you shoot these, you're are shooting for the client/s, and not for yourself.

September 12th, 2003, 02:13 PM	#11
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Well boys, here's the thing: My eyeballs say PD 150 but my good common sense says DVX 100. Remember, I like progressive for weddings because I do alot of effects where, right in the middle of a shot, I will freeze frame the action, pan/crop and superimpose a silly title. The clients love it and it also makes for fantastic opening wedding video titles. If anyone can convince me that shooting with a PD150 (or the new PD170 which is out now) in DVCAM mode will allow me frame grabs without it shaking all over the place , hell, the Sony's for me. Listen, I used to get all hyped up about new products. The aggravation is just not worth it, losing sleep over 24p, 30p, frame mode, 1/15th progressive. It's enough to make a guy go crazy because you're so afraid of laying out $3,500.00 and finding out that the camera ain't doing it. Capisce? I will stay interlaced if the frame grab is steady. Look at the JVC Cineline cameras. NO progressive there and JVC is toting that baby as an interlaced cinema camera!

September 12th, 2003, 02:16 PM	#12
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Oh by the way, here's the poop on the new PD170 http://www.global-dvc.org/html/PD170.asp.

September 12th, 2003, 02:43 PM	#13
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	That page does not come up and they don't have it listed under any of their news stories. I am more and more convinced that this is a hoax. But I've been wrong before. Sony Europe does not mention this in their IBC news on their web site. There is a thread on the '170'. Please do not continue discussion on it in this thread. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

September 12th, 2003, 07:10 PM	#14
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Hugh, I see what you mean. I also like to use progressive (and low shutter speeds) for effect, for weddings---for funeral's I keep it interlaced and morbid---that's probably why I'm twisted. You do enough funerals, and it takes its toll. Now don't laugh, the cams I mainly use are 2 old JVC GR-DVL9500U's, In PAL land they're called the GR-DVL9600 (DV--in/out). They have a 1/3" progressive scan CCD, and they perform very well in lower light. Sometimes I rent a Beachtek and mic to improve the audio---if they pay me enough. I had a couple of el-cheapo mics which I use to just plug in, but they've bit the bullet some time back.

September 15th, 2003, 12:31 PM	#15
Hugh DiMauro Trustee Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Central Florida Posts: 1,207	Frank: YOU VIDEOTAPE FUNERALS? HAHAHAHHAHAH! How did you get that gig? Ohh myyy God! Is there a market for that? I'll do funerals in a second! Beats weddings!