why not PAL? at DVinfo.net

Michael Struthers · July 14th, 2003, 12:26 PM

If you're going to buy a new camcorder, why not get a PAL over an NTSC? It used to be that the editing was the problem, I guess, but now you can just do NLE (does FCP 3 edit PAL?) and save out to DVD....I guess I'm just looking for opinions. That 20 pct extra resolution is pretty attractive...

Whaddya think?

Michael

Mike Rehmus · July 14th, 2003, 12:51 PM

The 50 cycle field rate is very near the flicker-fusion-frequency, the point at which people can see flicker in an image presented in the manner of video or film. Film, at 48 displayed frames per second (24 new frames of film, each displayed twice by a 2-bladed shutter) also flickers. That I can see as well as the flicker in PAL.

The other slight problem is that PAL video has some hetrodyning problems with 60 cycle lights. I get this when taping in NTSC in Europe. Sometimes you can get around that by selecting a different shutter speed if your camera has the capability.

You would also have to make certain that your editing system or duping VCR will convert to NTSC or you won't be able to distribute NTSC dupes. Some editing systems sold in the US will not handle PAL. And some VCRs will only display footage from another format, not convert to a new tape (makes sense, they only have one transport).

I've not seen amateur PAL footage on DVD so I don't know what issues have to be solved or even if there are issues.

Michael Struthers · July 15th, 2003, 09:00 AM

Thanks for the response! If you edit PAL in an NLE (and trying for the film look) and burn the video out to DVD as region 0 or whatever it is that everyone can see, it seems to me there wouldn't be much of a problem with buying a PAL camcorder to use in the US...

Mike Rehmus · July 15th, 2003, 09:40 AM

Well, as I said, I've no experience with PAL on DVD in NTSC land. But if it made a lot of sense, I'd think a lot of people would be doing it.

The theoretical resolution of the camera (PAL or NTSC) is rarely achieved, especially in lower-end cameras because of the low-cost (relatievely) optical front ends.

I think it is a moot point in real life.

Nigel Moore · July 15th, 2003, 11:32 AM

Mike, this PAL flicker that you mention, is this specifically PAL played on NTSC monitors or PAL played on whatever. I use PAL and can't say I've ever noticed flicker. Is it because I'm playing back on PAL equipment, or is it that my dear old eyes have adjusted to the flicker?

Mike Rehmus · July 15th, 2003, 06:03 PM

The frequency at which flicker is visible varies with each individual. So it depends. I can see some flicker at 50 fps.

You cannot see PAL on a NTSC monitor. You may have a dual-standard monitor but then it's running in PAL mode. If you are watching a PAL recording on a NTSC monitor, then a standards conversion is taking place in the playback unit.

Joel Ruggiero · July 17th, 2003, 01:25 PM

Why cant we have a unvieisal operating system? wouldnt this be so much easier and solve so many conflicts! Just though this would be an apropiate random thought

Nigel Moore · July 17th, 2003, 01:51 PM

Nice idea, but it has been discussed here before. If the problem is related to power standards it's pretty much unsolvable IMO.

July 14th, 2003, 12:26 PM	#1
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	why not PAL? If you're going to buy a new camcorder, why not get a PAL over an NTSC? It used to be that the editing was the problem, I guess, but now you can just do NLE (does FCP 3 edit PAL?) and save out to DVD....I guess I'm just looking for opinions. That 20 pct extra resolution is pretty attractive... Whaddya think? Michael

July 14th, 2003, 12:51 PM	#2
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	The 50 cycle field rate is very near the flicker-fusion-frequency, the point at which people can see flicker in an image presented in the manner of video or film. Film, at 48 displayed frames per second (24 new frames of film, each displayed twice by a 2-bladed shutter) also flickers. That I can see as well as the flicker in PAL. The other slight problem is that PAL video has some hetrodyning problems with 60 cycle lights. I get this when taping in NTSC in Europe. Sometimes you can get around that by selecting a different shutter speed if your camera has the capability. You would also have to make certain that your editing system or duping VCR will convert to NTSC or you won't be able to distribute NTSC dupes. Some editing systems sold in the US will not handle PAL. And some VCRs will only display footage from another format, not convert to a new tape (makes sense, they only have one transport). I've not seen amateur PAL footage on DVD so I don't know what issues have to be solved or even if there are issues. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

July 15th, 2003, 09:40 AM	#4
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Well, as I said, I've no experience with PAL on DVD in NTSC land. But if it made a lot of sense, I'd think a lot of people would be doing it. The theoretical resolution of the camera (PAL or NTSC) is rarely achieved, especially in lower-end cameras because of the low-cost (relatievely) optical front ends. I think it is a moot point in real life. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

July 15th, 2003, 06:03 PM	#6
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	The frequency at which flicker is visible varies with each individual. So it depends. I can see some flicker at 50 fps. You cannot see PAL on a NTSC monitor. You may have a dual-standard monitor but then it's running in PAL mode. If you are watching a PAL recording on a NTSC monitor, then a standards conversion is taking place in the playback unit. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

July 15th, 2003, 09:00 AM	#3
Michael Struthers Major Player Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: SF, Ca Posts: 421	Thanks for the response! If you edit PAL in an NLE (and trying for the film look) and burn the video out to DVD as region 0 or whatever it is that everyone can see, it seems to me there wouldn't be much of a problem with buying a PAL camcorder to use in the US...

July 15th, 2003, 11:32 AM	#5
Nigel Moore Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 358	Mike, this PAL flicker that you mention, is this specifically PAL played on NTSC monitors or PAL played on whatever. I use PAL and can't say I've ever noticed flicker. Is it because I'm playing back on PAL equipment, or is it that my dear old eyes have adjusted to the flicker?

July 17th, 2003, 01:25 PM	#7
Joel Ruggiero Regular Crew Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Buffalo,NY Posts: 167	Why cant we have a unvieisal operating system? wouldnt this be so much easier and solve so many conflicts! Just though this would be an apropiate random thought

July 17th, 2003, 01:51 PM	#8
Nigel Moore Major Player Join Date: May 2003 Location: Switzerland Posts: 358	Nice idea, but it has been discussed here before. If the problem is related to power standards it's pretty much unsolvable IMO.