dx10 in low light question at DVinfo.net

Derek Beck · February 24th, 2003, 01:32 AM

I just came up with another question which may deserve its own thread: how does the dx10 do in low light situations such as trying to film a sunset, or a full moon at night, or fireworks? Has anyone tried this?

Yik Kuen · February 24th, 2003, 06:41 PM

Hi Derek,

TRV-950's video noise is less noticeable than PD-150/VX2000 but it kicks in earlier due to its poorer light sensitivity. And I believe this applies to PDX-10 as well.

Derek Beck · February 24th, 2003, 07:32 PM

how does this appear in a shot of say someone sitting next to a campfire at night? While there is a light source prominent, is the black background all noisy?

Yik Kuen · February 25th, 2003, 09:05 PM

For TRV950, it's pretty clean. It handles black quite well. Even for colors/situations that are prone to have noise, it's not as prominent as other cams even when comparing to VX2000. May be this is due to its mega pixel CCD (or its smaller CCD!)

However, please bear in mind that the VX2000 captures brighter images.

As for your case, I'm pretty sure that it can capture clean footage but do becareful of the vertical smear problem.

Frank Granovski · February 25th, 2003, 09:16 PM

Re: "do be careful of the vertical smear problem."

How bad is this vertical smear problem so often discussed with the TRV950 and PDX10?

Kenn Jolemore · February 26th, 2003, 10:26 AM

Frank wrote:How bad is this vertical smear problem so often discussed with the TRV950 and PDX10?

I have a feeling it depends on the person behind the camera quit a bit from talking with other owners about it.
Of course I guess it could be a camera by camera type problem as I have had very little problem but also no luck in getting mine to even create the problem to start with while others say it is a constant problem.

Frank Granovski · February 26th, 2003, 03:07 PM

Perhaps the smearing is caused by not using a tripod, and/or fast pans and tilts?

Kenn Jolemore · February 26th, 2003, 05:21 PM

That could very well contribute to the problem but extreme contrasts are the most common similarity described by people. I really believe that getting the exposure correct and paying some mind to the lighting in high contrast situations (no to mention regularly paying mind)will solve the problem most every time.
Many people are buying these puppies with the idea the camcorder will do all the work and end up unhappy with the product. Nothing new there I'm sure.
I guess it's a lesson to sony also about that spot where packing pixels into tight spots is hitting a wall? We will see if the next bunch has expanded CCD's in comparison with last years products in general as I think they went with some 1/3.6 CCD's in a few cam's this season rather than the 1/4.6 or even going smaller like Pana has done in some models.

Paul Tauger · February 26th, 2003, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Perhaps the smearing is caused by not using a tripod, and/or fast pans and tilts?

The vertical smearing is a side effect of the HAD (hole-accumulation diodes) CCDs employed by Sony, and shows up in all their products. HAD CCDs have better low-light performance than standard CCDs.

The effect is most noticeable with bright, pin-point light sources -- the light will have a star-like effect, except that the "arms" of the star only extend vertically and not horizontally.

Some people find the effect objectionable. It happens that I don't.

Derek Beck · February 26th, 2003, 08:11 PM

Yik: So shooting something like a campfire or fireworks...would that come out nice on the x10 do you think?

All: I guess I'm just not sure how hung up I should be on the 7 lux for the x10 vs. the 2 lux for the 150...

If I'm going to shoot something where people are in a dark room and it doesn't come out like its a dark room, I'm not going to be pleased. Is the lux more like minimum lighting to get full-colors? How should I read into this?

Also, without a light meter, what's 2 vs. 7 lux look like? Let's say you are in a room w/o windows at night and the only light on is your TV, and you are facing the opposite way of your TV, and the room is fairly small...how bright is that? Okay, howabout sitting at a campfire?

Thanks,
Derek

Frank Granovski · February 27th, 2003, 01:23 AM

It's like this..., you'll always need light; and a little extra lux isn't going to make much of a difference. However, the required lux of the VX2000 and PD150 is a lot lower than cams such as the TRV950, PDX10 and MX5000---that's because their CCDs are so small and so packed with tiny pixels, and the lenses of these cameras are so small compared with the VX2000/PD150.

Kenn Jolemore · February 27th, 2003, 05:07 AM

Derek, Both of those situations will leave you with less than ideal video though the campfire has much better odds of giving you a half decent shot than the Telly.
I have some camping footage during a mostly full moon with a pretty big camp fire that looks OK. Nothing to brag about but you can tell who is who and what is going on.

Yik Kuen · February 27th, 2003, 10:03 AM

Hi Derek,

I wouldn't dare to say that it'll be 100% OK. But I believe campfire light sources won't cause too much trouble for both PDX-10 or TRV950.

Recently, both my friend and I tested out in an event that had very bright light sources (1000W ++ spot lights) in the everning. Both our cams (PD-150 and TRV-950) were capturing with unbearable vertical smears. We've tried adjusting cams but it didn't seem to work. However, PD-150 is slightly more resistant to vertical smear. But I can assure you that 950 (or may be PDX-10) delivers very good videos.

Personally, I like its size which is convenient enough to carry around, and its video quality, which is good enough in most situation.

(I do carry it to my office everyday!)

Derek Beck · February 27th, 2003, 11:15 PM

Kenn: your footage was with the 950/x10?

Kenn Jolemore · February 28th, 2003, 04:37 AM

The footage was with the 950

February 24th, 2003, 01:32 AM	#1
Derek Beck Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 50	dx10 in low light question I just came up with another question which may deserve its own thread: how does the dx10 do in low light situations such as trying to film a sunset, or a full moon at night, or fireworks? Has anyone tried this? __________________ Derek Beck

February 24th, 2003, 07:32 PM	#3
Derek Beck Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 50	how does this appear in a shot of say someone sitting next to a campfire at night? While there is a light source prominent, is the black background all noisy? __________________ Derek Beck

February 26th, 2003, 10:26 AM	#6
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	Frank wrote:How bad is this vertical smear problem so often discussed with the TRV950 and PDX10? I have a feeling it depends on the person behind the camera quit a bit from talking with other owners about it. Of course I guess it could be a camera by camera type problem as I have had very little problem but also no luck in getting mine to even create the problem to start with while others say it is a constant problem. __________________ KennJ

February 26th, 2003, 05:21 PM	#8
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	That could very well contribute to the problem but extreme contrasts are the most common similarity described by people. I really believe that getting the exposure correct and paying some mind to the lighting in high contrast situations (no to mention regularly paying mind)will solve the problem most every time. Many people are buying these puppies with the idea the camcorder will do all the work and end up unhappy with the product. Nothing new there I'm sure. I guess it's a lesson to sony also about that spot where packing pixels into tight spots is hitting a wall? We will see if the next bunch has expanded CCD's in comparison with last years products in general as I think they went with some 1/3.6 CCD's in a few cam's this season rather than the 1/4.6 or even going smaller like Pana has done in some models. __________________ KennJ

February 26th, 2003, 08:11 PM	#10
Derek Beck Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 50	Yik: So shooting something like a campfire or fireworks...would that come out nice on the x10 do you think? All: I guess I'm just not sure how hung up I should be on the 7 lux for the x10 vs. the 2 lux for the 150... If I'm going to shoot something where people are in a dark room and it doesn't come out like its a dark room, I'm not going to be pleased. Is the lux more like minimum lighting to get full-colors? How should I read into this? Also, without a light meter, what's 2 vs. 7 lux look like? Let's say you are in a room w/o windows at night and the only light on is your TV, and you are facing the opposite way of your TV, and the room is fairly small...how bright is that? Okay, howabout sitting at a campfire? Thanks, Derek __________________ Derek Beck

February 24th, 2003, 06:41 PM	#2
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi Derek, TRV-950's video noise is less noticeable than PD-150/VX2000 but it kicks in earlier due to its poorer light sensitivity. And I believe this applies to PDX-10 as well.

February 25th, 2003, 09:05 PM	#4
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	For TRV950, it's pretty clean. It handles black quite well. Even for colors/situations that are prone to have noise, it's not as prominent as other cams even when comparing to VX2000. May be this is due to its mega pixel CCD (or its smaller CCD!) However, please bear in mind that the VX2000 captures brighter images. As for your case, I'm pretty sure that it can capture clean footage but do becareful of the vertical smear problem.

February 25th, 2003, 09:16 PM	#5
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Re: "do be careful of the vertical smear problem." How bad is this vertical smear problem so often discussed with the TRV950 and PDX10?

February 26th, 2003, 03:07 PM	#7
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Perhaps the smearing is caused by not using a tripod, and/or fast pans and tilts?

February 27th, 2003, 01:23 AM	#11
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	It's like this..., you'll always need light; and a little extra lux isn't going to make much of a difference. However, the required lux of the VX2000 and PD150 is a lot lower than cams such as the TRV950, PDX10 and MX5000---that's because their CCDs are so small and so packed with tiny pixels, and the lenses of these cameras are so small compared with the VX2000/PD150.

February 27th, 2003, 05:07 AM	#12
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	Derek, Both of those situations will leave you with less than ideal video though the campfire has much better odds of giving you a half decent shot than the Telly. I have some camping footage during a mostly full moon with a pretty big camp fire that looks OK. Nothing to brag about but you can tell who is who and what is going on. __________________ KennJ

February 27th, 2003, 10:03 AM	#13
Yik Kuen Regular Crew Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Johor Bahru, Malaysia Posts: 135	Hi Derek, I wouldn't dare to say that it'll be 100% OK. But I believe campfire light sources won't cause too much trouble for both PDX-10 or TRV950. Recently, both my friend and I tested out in an event that had very bright light sources (1000W ++ spot lights) in the everning. Both our cams (PD-150 and TRV-950) were capturing with unbearable vertical smears. We've tried adjusting cams but it didn't seem to work. However, PD-150 is slightly more resistant to vertical smear. But I can assure you that 950 (or may be PDX-10) delivers very good videos. Personally, I like its size which is convenient enough to carry around, and its video quality, which is good enough in most situation. (I do carry it to my office everyday!)

February 27th, 2003, 11:15 PM	#14
Derek Beck Regular Crew Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Los Angeles, CA Posts: 50	Kenn: your footage was with the 950/x10? __________________ Derek Beck

February 28th, 2003, 04:37 AM	#15
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	The footage was with the 950 __________________ KennJ