SONY TRV950E does MEGAPIXEL 25P !!! at DVinfo.net

John Jay · October 11th, 2002, 08:38 PM

YES -- E means the Pal version but this should work with the NTSC version

Step1
Connect Firewire cable from TRV950E and to either
a) another DVCamcorder with DVIN or
b) your favorite NLE or
c) a portable hard disk recorder (DSR-DU1) or laptop(NLE)

please note shutter speed reduced to range 50 - 425

Step 2
Switch TRV950E to memory/network setting and turn on those looow noise 3CCD 1070000 megapixels

Step 3
Record the results on the a) or b) or c) from Step 1

Step 4
Bathe in the megapixel glory of 25P - Movie time!!!

This camcorder is HEAVY and now you know why

Have Fun

Margus Kivilaan · October 16th, 2002, 09:35 AM

tried this one out at once.
pdx10 memory mode really works differently from earlier Sony models, giving 25 fps and a wider angle of view. Look yourself:
http://www.opossum.ee/ftp/skydive/ki...cameramode.tif
http://www.opossum.ee/ftp/skydive/ki...memorymode.tif
hmmmm... interesting...my 2 cents that we will see new Sony 25P prosumer camera models at NAB2003

regards, Margus

sorry, 30P at NAB, 25P maybe at IBC

Dennis Hull · October 16th, 2002, 07:19 PM

Hesitate to ask since this thread is getting way beyond my limited knowledge, but Margus I guess you are saying this same 25p "secret" applies to PDX10"E" as well as TRV950E and would you expect an NTSC PDX10 to have the same "secret" feature except at 30P?? re your last comment in your note. Or is this unique to PAL versions of TRV950 and PDX10.

October 17th, 2002, 01:56 AM

How does it record 25P onto your capture/hardisk, using the DV codec or are the two interlaced fields put together into progressive frames, anybody else tested this, I want to know more!

Margus Kivilaan · October 17th, 2002, 03:47 AM

oops, i've messed up things a bit.
My camera is pdx10p, PAL version. I don't know much about NTSC version of that camera (to be honest nothing).
It's definently standard DV signal coming out from camera in memory mode. Otherwise my editor would'nt recognize it. At the moment i'm not sure if it is progressively scanned or not, seems like progressive.
Btw. picture from analogue output in memory mode is quite crap, looks like 15fps.

regards, Margus

John Jay · October 17th, 2002, 12:13 PM

Margus

I wonder if you could do a simple test with your PDX10?

grab a frame in 16:9 camera mode and compare it with a frame from memory mode (from DV out) which has been letterboxed - 3/4 height. I predict that they will be the same

The reason is because the TRV950/PDX10 actually has 3x megapixel 1/4" CCD in memory mode which is cropped in camera mode to 690,000 (title safe frame) which is a chip size equivalent of 1/4.7". This is verified by checking the spec of memory mode which shows equivalent 35mm lens optics of 41-492mm which is the same as a TRV900/PD100 which also has 1/4" CCDs.

The DOF characteristics are therefore those of 1/4" CCD in either camera mode or memory mode.

I can confirm 25P mode has 540H & 330V lines resolution

Barry Green · August 1st, 2003, 06:15 PM

This whole thread was fascinating, so I went to test it.

Okay, does it shoot 30P(25P) when recording in memory mode?

Nope.

Went down to The Good Guys, and plugged the TRV950 into a tiny little Sharp camcorder, firewire to firewire. Set the TRV950 in "memory" mode, and - lo and behold, there it was, progressive-looking footage showing up on the Sharp's viewscreen. I was stoked, I thought that this was the real deal.

One odd thing though -- when recording in "memory" mode, the image was just a bit wider-angle than when recording in "video" mode. I swapped between the two frequently while recording to see the difference. It seems like the camera is using the full surface of the chip to make 4:3 video in "memory" mode, but in "video" mode it samples a smaller patch (probably to leave room for image stabilization).

But, when I brought it home to check it out on a monitor, the "progressive" footage was really soft, quite low-resolution. And that's when it hit -- I think it's not progressive at all, it's just de-interlaced. I compared a few frames of video mode vs. comparable frames from memory mode, and the video mode stuff was much sharper. For grins I had Photoshop de-interlace one of the video frames, and lo & behold, it sure looked a LOT like the memory mode stuff.

So, I'd have to declare that no, despite claims to the contrary, the PDX10/TRV950 cannot shoot 25P or 30P, they're shooting interlaced footage that is being de-interlaced on the fly as it's sent down the firewire.

Oh well. Would have been neat...

Frank Granovski · August 1st, 2003, 06:29 PM

If this cam can do progressive, it would be stated in the manual. So since it's not in the manual, it doesn't do progressive. But there are always believers out there.

Barry Green · August 1st, 2003, 07:58 PM

I was just following up on a report that had been made.

The camera does shoot progressive at 15fps, so it does have some progressive capability.

And not all features are always documented in the manual -- color bars on the VX1000 & XL1 being a prime example.

Frank Granovski · August 1st, 2003, 08:40 PM

Yes, there's always some trick that's not documented. I realize you were following up. I read that other post about the progressive capability yesterday or the day before that.

Tommy Haupfear · August 2nd, 2003, 06:54 AM

I posted frame grabs showing the differences in angle of view and quality between camera and memory mode on my PDX10.

Use this link to view.

http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies...&tid=104800000

Ho Chee Woe · August 2nd, 2003, 05:29 PM

my question is how long we can record by using this method??
i think 950 will be automatically switched off if we don't record into tape?

Tor Salomonsen · August 3rd, 2003, 03:57 AM

If you run it on net power the 950 may not switch off. That function is tyhere to save you from (accidentally) wearing out your battery.

Margus Kivilaan · August 4th, 2003, 12:25 AM

<So, I'd have to declare that no, despite claims to the contrary, the PDX10/TRV950 cannot shoot 25P or 30P, they're shooting interlaced footage that is being de-interlaced on the fly as it's sent down the firewire.>

I think that these cameras shoot in mem mode progressive and output consequently 2 fields of the same frame. The reason why picture is blurred is the same why in mem mode picture is wider. Camera uses the whole chip area and must later rescale megapix frame to usual video resolution. In cam mode it uses only the center part of chips, equal to video res.
It's not very unusual that Sony does'nt mention some properties in manuals. For example most of Sony DV cameras can play out DVCAM (at least PAL versions), and no manual mentions that.

Margus

John Jay · August 4th, 2003, 02:32 PM

Barry,

The reduction in vertical resolution has already been stated earlier (October 2002); therefore I can¡¦t see anything new that you are bringing to this thread

I can confirm PAL 25P mode has 540H & 330V lines resolution, which of course would be impossible to achieve on a de-interlaced PAL signal

Perhaps you are forgetting that in memory mode the camera is a STILL camera connected to the DV port. What would be the point of interlacing a still image only to de-interlace it again so that it meets with your declaration? It seems like a lot of excessive functionality for an undeclared feature

In truth only Sony knows why the vertical resolution is reduced unless you care to reverse engineer the math block of this camera

In PAL land it is not so bad whereas in NTSC land the drop in vertical resolution would probably be intolerable ¡V but that¡¦s just the way it is :@)

Tommy,

Your pictures are fine; however I would have preferred to see the memory mode picture zoomed-in (in camera*) by about 20% for a fair comparison since resolution tests should be compared at the same level of magnification

October 11th, 2002, 08:38 PM	#1
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	SONY TRV950E does MEGAPIXEL 25P !!! YES -- E means the Pal version but this should work with the NTSC version Step1 Connect Firewire cable from TRV950E and to either a) another DVCamcorder with DVIN or b) your favorite NLE or c) a portable hard disk recorder (DSR-DU1) or laptop(NLE) please note shutter speed reduced to range 50 - 425 Step 2 Switch TRV950E to memory/network setting and turn on those looow noise 3CCD 1070000 megapixels Step 3 Record the results on the a) or b) or c) from Step 1 Step 4 Bathe in the megapixel glory of 25P - Movie time!!! This camcorder is HEAVY and now you know why Have Fun

October 16th, 2002, 07:19 PM	#3
Dennis Hull Regular Crew Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: St. Paul, MN USA Posts: 151	25p and 30p Hesitate to ask since this thread is getting way beyond my limited knowledge, but Margus I guess you are saying this same 25p "secret" applies to PDX10"E" as well as TRV950E and would you expect an NTSC PDX10 to have the same "secret" feature except at 30P?? re your last comment in your note. Or is this unique to PAL versions of TRV950 and PDX10.

August 4th, 2003, 02:32 PM	#15
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Barry, The reduction in vertical resolution has already been stated earlier (October 2002); therefore I can¡¦t see anything new that you are bringing to this thread I can confirm PAL 25P mode has 540H & 330V lines resolution, which of course would be impossible to achieve on a de-interlaced PAL signal Perhaps you are forgetting that in memory mode the camera is a STILL camera connected to the DV port. What would be the point of interlacing a still image only to de-interlace it again so that it meets with your declaration? It seems like a lot of excessive functionality for an undeclared feature In truth only Sony knows why the vertical resolution is reduced unless you care to reverse engineer the math block of this camera In PAL land it is not so bad whereas in NTSC land the drop in vertical resolution would probably be intolerable ¡V but that¡¦s just the way it is :@) Tommy, Your pictures are fine; however I would have preferred to see the memory mode picture zoomed-in (in camera) by about 20% for a fair comparison since resolution tests should be compared at the same level of magnification __________________ John Jay Beware PLUGGER-BYTES*

October 16th, 2002, 09:35 AM	#2
Margus Kivilaan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Posts: 123	tried this one out at once. pdx10 memory mode really works differently from earlier Sony models, giving 25 fps and a wider angle of view. Look yourself: http://www.opossum.ee/ftp/skydive/ki...cameramode.tif http://www.opossum.ee/ftp/skydive/ki...memorymode.tif hmmmm... interesting...my 2 cents that we will see new Sony 25P prosumer camera models at NAB2003 regards, Margus sorry, 30P at NAB, 25P maybe at IBC

October 17th, 2002, 01:56 AM	#4
ThreeSixtyProductions Posts: n/a	How does it record 25P onto your capture/hardisk, using the DV codec or are the two interlaced fields put together into progressive frames, anybody else tested this, I want to know more!

October 17th, 2002, 03:47 AM	#5
Margus Kivilaan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Posts: 123	oops, i've messed up things a bit. My camera is pdx10p, PAL version. I don't know much about NTSC version of that camera (to be honest nothing). It's definently standard DV signal coming out from camera in memory mode. Otherwise my editor would'nt recognize it. At the moment i'm not sure if it is progressively scanned or not, seems like progressive. Btw. picture from analogue output in memory mode is quite crap, looks like 15fps. regards, Margus

October 17th, 2002, 12:13 PM	#6
John Jay Major Player Join Date: Sep 2002 Location: US & THEM Posts: 827	Margus I wonder if you could do a simple test with your PDX10? grab a frame in 16:9 camera mode and compare it with a frame from memory mode (from DV out) which has been letterboxed - 3/4 height. I predict that they will be the same The reason is because the TRV950/PDX10 actually has 3x megapixel 1/4" CCD in memory mode which is cropped in camera mode to 690,000 (title safe frame) which is a chip size equivalent of 1/4.7". This is verified by checking the spec of memory mode which shows equivalent 35mm lens optics of 41-492mm which is the same as a TRV900/PD100 which also has 1/4" CCDs. The DOF characteristics are therefore those of 1/4" CCD in either camera mode or memory mode. I can confirm 25P mode has 540H & 330V lines resolution

August 1st, 2003, 06:15 PM	#7
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	This whole thread was fascinating, so I went to test it. Okay, does it shoot 30P(25P) when recording in memory mode? Nope. Went down to The Good Guys, and plugged the TRV950 into a tiny little Sharp camcorder, firewire to firewire. Set the TRV950 in "memory" mode, and - lo and behold, there it was, progressive-looking footage showing up on the Sharp's viewscreen. I was stoked, I thought that this was the real deal. One odd thing though -- when recording in "memory" mode, the image was just a bit wider-angle than when recording in "video" mode. I swapped between the two frequently while recording to see the difference. It seems like the camera is using the full surface of the chip to make 4:3 video in "memory" mode, but in "video" mode it samples a smaller patch (probably to leave room for image stabilization). But, when I brought it home to check it out on a monitor, the "progressive" footage was really soft, quite low-resolution. And that's when it hit -- I think it's not progressive at all, it's just de-interlaced. I compared a few frames of video mode vs. comparable frames from memory mode, and the video mode stuff was much sharper. For grins I had Photoshop de-interlace one of the video frames, and lo & behold, it sure looked a LOT like the memory mode stuff. So, I'd have to declare that no, despite claims to the contrary, the PDX10/TRV950 cannot shoot 25P or 30P, they're shooting interlaced footage that is being de-interlaced on the fly as it's sent down the firewire. Oh well. Would have been neat...

August 1st, 2003, 06:29 PM	#8
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	If this cam can do progressive, it would be stated in the manual. So since it's not in the manual, it doesn't do progressive. But there are always believers out there.

August 1st, 2003, 07:58 PM	#9
Barry Green Barry Wan Kenobi Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: North Carolina Posts: 3,863	I was just following up on a report that had been made. The camera does shoot progressive at 15fps, so it does have some progressive capability. And not all features are always documented in the manual -- color bars on the VX1000 & XL1 being a prime example.

August 1st, 2003, 08:40 PM	#10
Frank Granovski Outer Circle Join Date: May 2002 Location: Hope, BC Posts: 7,524	Yes, there's always some trick that's not documented. I realize you were following up. I read that other post about the progressive capability yesterday or the day before that.

August 2nd, 2003, 06:54 AM	#11
Tommy Haupfear Wrangler Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Greenville, SC Posts: 1,415	I posted frame grabs showing the differences in angle of view and quality between camera and memory mode on my PDX10. Use this link to view. http://www.dv.com/forums/showReplies...&tid=104800000

August 2nd, 2003, 05:29 PM	#12
Ho Chee Woe New Boot Join Date: Apr 2003 Location: Malaysia Posts: 12	my question is how long we can record by using this method?? i think 950 will be automatically switched off if we don't record into tape?

August 3rd, 2003, 03:57 AM	#13
Tor Salomonsen Major Player Join Date: Jan 2003 Location: Stavanger, Norway Posts: 265	If you run it on net power the 950 may not switch off. That function is tyhere to save you from (accidentally) wearing out your battery.

August 4th, 2003, 12:25 AM	#14
Margus Kivilaan Regular Crew Join Date: May 2002 Location: Tallinn, Estonia Posts: 123	<So, I'd have to declare that no, despite claims to the contrary, the PDX10/TRV950 cannot shoot 25P or 30P, they're shooting interlaced footage that is being de-interlaced on the fly as it's sent down the firewire.> I think that these cameras shoot in mem mode progressive and output consequently 2 fields of the same frame. The reason why picture is blurred is the same why in mem mode picture is wider. Camera uses the whole chip area and must later rescale megapix frame to usual video resolution. In cam mode it uses only the center part of chips, equal to video res. It's not very unusual that Sony does'nt mention some properties in manuals. For example most of Sony DV cameras can play out DVCAM (at least PAL versions), and no manual mentions that. Margus