HC1000 -- various questions

Stu Holmes · August 4th, 2005, 08:02 PM

Hi Boyd / Steve

Yep I think (if i may say so !) Boyd misquoted me slightly ther.
what i actually said about the HC1000 / HC1 was that when you fix the shutter speed and then change the exposure manually (which of course you can do), you can't for all EV values, change ONLY aperture or ONLY the gain.
It may well be in, say, middling light levels that when you change the exposure down, that the camera will be at 0db gain anyway, and so will just close the lens 1 stop, so yep that's in effect direct control of the aperture and the shutter speed BUT if light levels fall, say, and you manually increase exposure then you get to a point where the camera is at max.aperture and will have to go to +3dB gain. so that's the limitation really.

- It does have 'shutter priority' mode (to draw a 35mm phrasing analogy) but it wouldve been nice if Sony had given us 'aperture priority' mode too, independent of gain.

Quite why on the A1 Sony still haven't given the user the aperture, gain in-LCD during shooting i don't know. I can see their 'product positioning' guys saying "Oh HC1 is consumer camera so let's not give them that feature" but omitting it for A1 is a bit odd.

Having said that i love my HC1000 to bits - it's a great camera and very similar, functionally, to the HC1 (which i'm getting as soon as i get back to a PAL country !)

rgds

Stephen Finton · August 5th, 2005, 07:05 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

This is what confuses me - page 59 in the manual:

-------------
The shutter speed cannot be changed while you are using the following functions:

- Flexible spot meter
- Exposure
--------------

But you're saying that the shutter speed can first be set, then you can go into manual exposure mode and that speed will stay in effect while you adjust the iris/ND setting? Actually, that's the same as the VX-2000 and PDX-10, but it's implemented a little differently with real buttons and wheels instead of the touch screen.

That should've read Manual Exposure, in the manual. Once you go to Auto Exposure, shutter can be adjusted manually. Shutter is something you don't want to ride, anyway. The change in shutter speed over time while you are recording definitely registers as a glitch on the screen and would not be something I would want to be doing while I am recording. I set it for what I am doing and then forget it.

Sandra Warshaw · August 11th, 2005, 01:44 AM

UPDATE:

Have put samples on web page
in order to illustrate problem...
http://www.sonic.net/~stepnext/SAMPLES/indexSO.html

The magnified version is very very very magnified...and does not appear that large in image.
_______
Here are current conclusions/observations/theories

BACKGROUND

1. The problem did appear in second camera.

2. I did find ways to limit it (but not eliminate)
(decreasing sharpness while shooting/blurring in postproduction/)

3. I believe (not sure) that the problem is more common than reported. At least I believe that the same problem was described in an archive here. I just found it this week...after returning first camera.
__________________
http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/i...hp/t-3382.html

SOMEONE ELSE's ENTRY ABOUT SONY 950:
"I examined my tape in full, both on the camcorder viewing screen and on my TV and found that the 30 minutes of tape I had shot were filled with vertical bands, white or multicolored, which I later learned were the vertical smear problem"
________________
4. But I also have come to believe it doesn't ultimately cause difficulty for most production goals. (It doesn't appear in most mediums...such as computer monitor, VHS dub.)

5. I just contacted a local television station....because that's the final destination of my current project. The representative said he's very familiar with the problem and has found it doesn't cause problems with airing on our local TV stations. (Our standards are lower than many larger areas.)

He also told me it's common in most prosumer cameras and is eliminated in higher end cameras (which I can't afford). Though, I'm currently researching to find out if some other similarly priced cameras do not have problem.

All of these problems did get me thinking that the GS400 may have been a better choice.

DECISIONS...DECISIONS...THE TIME HAS COME...

Tomorrow is the last day to decide (based on exchange policy of seller).

I could be wrong...it could be that I got two bad cameras..and should try to exchange this one...or even get the GS400...if that's possible.

But I'm inclined to conclude
it's time to accept that all cameras have limitations...and the SONY HC1000 while limited in this way...will meet goals for which it was purchased.

In separate entry (below), include reasons why I suspect it's a common problem...and how to mitigate it...for those interested.

PS. I freely admit I have a lot to learn. Plus, I was limited in my ability to try out the camera. In order to qualify for exchange...I was limited to 120 minutes of use with camera...and time limit of one week. So, I'm sure I have not examine every aspect...considered EVERY angle.

So, my decision...is based on best understanding...to date.

And...I realize someone on forum might offer a different perspective that would be good to consider before making final decision.

Though one big limitation is funds. At this point, I can't afford a more expensive camera. So, that's not an option.

THANKS in advance for taking time to respond.

Sandra Warshaw · August 11th, 2005, 01:59 AM

BELOW IS BACKGROUND which I believe helps to explain why digital camcorders have trouble with lines (light lines against dark background).

And...it's what led me to believe problem is common.

FROM:

PREMIERE for MACINTOSH & WINDOWS
by Antony Bolante

"Graphic elements that look good on a progressive scan monitor display poorly on an interlaced monitor. Due to interlacing, thin horizontal lines (or patterns containing thin horizontals) appear to flicker or vibrate. If a line is thin enough, it actually disappears with every scan of its field."

[NOTE: I suspect that the spiralling colors results when the "line" disappears. But that's a guess.] (Sandra)

Anthony Bolante...continued...

"Avoid using light typefaces, thin lines, and tight patterns in images that are destined for television. If necessary, choose the Flicker Removal option in the Field Options dialog box."

'"Flicker Removal" blurs the image so that thin horizontal details don't flicker due to interlacing."
_________________

NOTE: I found it takes more than "flicker removal." I needed to use "blur" from "video effects". There are varous ones--to apply. It's a trial and error process. The first time I tried the "blur" effect, it didn't seem to work. But the "Quick Time" blur effect worked. And then others like "fast blur" helped. Yet, while the "blur" effect seems to eliminate the blur...it also diminishes sharpness/quality of image.

ALSO...decreasing "sharpen" feature in camera helps...when shooting.

Boyd Ostroff · August 11th, 2005, 06:37 AM

I don't know Sandra, I just can't see much of a problem in those examples, although the first camera seems to exhibit it more. It would be good to know what all the camera settings were. Did you shoot in full auto mode? Did you change any of the custom presets? Try viewing the data code (should be accessed via touch screen buttons) while playing the tape. It will tell you the aperture, shutter speed, etc. Also, as you note, the sharpness setting could be an issue. Go to custom preset (I assume this camera has them?) and I would suggest turning the sharpness all the way to the minimum, it should give you a nicer image that way, or at least it does on my PDX-10.

I don't really see any of these problems on my PDX-10 which uses the same chips and sensors. BTW, I think B&H sells the HC-1000 for $1,400 and the PDX-10 for $1,600 (with rebate). If you can exchange I think the additional $200 would be very well spent considering all the additional features it has.

But I don't think the problem is related to vertical smear at all. That would only happen on bright white areas in extreme conditions. Also, since you only see the problem on your TV screen... how is the camera connected to the TV? Are you using the composite (RCA) jacks? That's a very poor quality connection and shouldn't be a basis for quality decisions. Can your friend at the TV station hook the camera up or play the tape on a good monitor?

Sorry, you've got me stumped here!

Stephen Finton · August 11th, 2005, 06:41 AM

You wouldn't be talking to us at all, if you had a progressive scan camera. :)

Sandra Warshaw · August 12th, 2005, 05:09 AM

THIS FORUM IS A REAL LIFE-SAVER!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

SHORT VERSION

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

BTW, I think B&H sells the HC-1000 for $1,400 and the PDX-10 for $1,600 (with rebate). If you can exchange I think the additional $200 would be very well spent considering all the additional features it has.

THANK YOU!!! BOYD...AND ALL WHO MAKE THIS FORUM POSSIBLE!!!!!

Posting my concerns here...helped me reach a decision...I know I could not have reached without this GREAT input.

I am returning the HC1000.

I am now SERIOUSLY considering the PDX10.

Thanks for telling me about the rebate.

That makes the PDX-10 an option.

They are currently out of stock...at B&H...but said they expect to get them in week (although the price has gone up.)

Today, I've been reading about it in reviews (here and elsewhere) and in online articles. Sounds very very promising. In many ways! For example, the XLR adaptor will actually save me money...since my current XLR adaptor is not compatible with the HC1000

And that great review on this forum by Ignacio Rodríguez de Rementería...
and that article http://www.ukriversguidebook.co.uk/maranon.htm
about a freelance videographer who who used a PDX-10 to film a South African expedition down the Amazon River in Peru...certainly demonstrate its many strengths...while documenting its limitations...realistically.

LONGER VERSION...CONCERNING OTHER QUESTIONS

As to your questions about settings...I tried all variations that I'm aware of...and they failed to deliver a satisfactory image.

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

But I don't think the problem is related to vertical smear at all. That would only happen on bright white areas in extreme conditions.

I am aware that there is a specific type of vertical smear that occurs when shooting into a very bright light. That is not the one I was referring to. I was under the impression that on at least one forum entry (described above), there was another type of vertical smear "with multi-colored bands." But I could be mistaken. (And that's the one I was referring to...so I guess I misnamed it.)

Quote:

Originally Posted by Boyd Ostroff

Can your friend at the TV station hook the camera up or play the tape on a good monitor?

I have a professional level monitor. The problem is limited there. But, the end user will be people with a wide range of TVs...so at least want to start out with images that look good on a regular TV set.

From what you're saying...and others have written...I believe the PDX-10 will be a MUCH better match for my use/goals.
*******************************

THANKS AGAIN!!!!! for taking time to seriously consider concerns and offer solid, practical solutions.

Stephen Finton · August 12th, 2005, 06:58 AM

Nice having something in common with you Sandra...if only for a little while. :(

:)

Clint Newman · August 31st, 2005, 06:46 AM

Just wondering how the HC1000 would compare to a GL2 on the video quality side of things?

Boyd Ostroff · August 31st, 2005, 07:35 AM

It will shoot much better 16:9 because of its high resolution CCD's. No frame movie mode though.

Tom Hardwick · August 31st, 2005, 08:29 AM

Boyd's right in answering your specific question; the 1000 is a much newer design than the GL series.

But if you'd asked us both, "which camera is the better machine?" I bet we'd both have come up with a different answer.

tom.

Boyd Ostroff · August 31st, 2005, 09:09 AM

Hmm... I am not much of an HC-1000 fan if that's what you're implying. The tiny battery and elimination of physical manual controls put it pretty low on my list. The manual controls on the GL-2 are going to make it more attractive.

I'm sure you can produce great results with either of these cameras though, since the camera itself is only part of the equation. But honestly, neither of these cameras would make my short list today...

Stephen Finton · September 5th, 2005, 01:11 AM

I honestly like not having the buttons on the outside of the camera. It forces me to setup my shot ahead of time and not ride the settings while I video. I know this sounds like a cop-out but I have had video shot by people who were just helping us using cameras other than the HC1000 and they wouldn't leave the damn exposure alone. We just shot a little independent film a couple of months ago and I set the cameras and forgot it. I did have one person switch it to auto focus but we had no scenes that required any movement in the foreground, so everything was just right when we went to edit everything together.

Stephen Finton · December 1st, 2005, 12:55 AM

I have not experienced the image problems mentioned here about them. In fact I've dropped one and it still works perfectly, although I do not suggest you try dropping them.

I REALLY don't know what camcorderinfo.com was going on about in their "review" of the camera. They prove that they didn't even REALLY review the camcorder because the reviewer said that it's swivel design does not lend to low level shooting. In fact, they say it points at the sky.

Check it out, though:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...e/DSC00108.jpg

Chris Thiele · December 4th, 2005, 05:47 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Stephen Finton

Check it out, though:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...e/DSC00108.jpg

I got this Stephen:
The page you are requesting cannot be found

August 11th, 2005, 01:44 AM	#93
Sandra Warshaw Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26	The time has come.... UPDATE: Have put samples on web page in order to illustrate problem... http://www.sonic.net/~stepnext/SAMPLES/indexSO.html The magnified version is very very very magnified...and does not appear that large in image. _______ Here are current conclusions/observations/theories BACKGROUND 1. The problem did appear in second camera. 2. I did find ways to limit it (but not eliminate) (decreasing sharpness while shooting/blurring in postproduction/) 3. I believe (not sure) that the problem is more common than reported. At least I believe that the same problem was described in an archive here. I just found it this week...after returning first camera. __________________ http://www.dvinfo.net/conf/archive/i...hp/t-3382.html SOMEONE ELSE's ENTRY ABOUT SONY 950: "I examined my tape in full, both on the camcorder viewing screen and on my TV and found that the 30 minutes of tape I had shot were filled with vertical bands, white or multicolored, which I later learned were the vertical smear problem" ________________ 4. But I also have come to believe it doesn't ultimately cause difficulty for most production goals. (It doesn't appear in most mediums...such as computer monitor, VHS dub.) 5. I just contacted a local television station....because that's the final destination of my current project. The representative said he's very familiar with the problem and has found it doesn't cause problems with airing on our local TV stations. (Our standards are lower than many larger areas.) He also told me it's common in most prosumer cameras and is eliminated in higher end cameras (which I can't afford). Though, I'm currently researching to find out if some other similarly priced cameras do not have problem. All of these problems did get me thinking that the GS400 may have been a better choice. DECISIONS...DECISIONS...THE TIME HAS COME... Tomorrow is the last day to decide (based on exchange policy of seller). I could be wrong...it could be that I got two bad cameras..and should try to exchange this one...or even get the GS400...if that's possible. But I'm inclined to conclude it's time to accept that all cameras have limitations...and the SONY HC1000 while limited in this way...will meet goals for which it was purchased. In separate entry (below), include reasons why I suspect it's a common problem...and how to mitigate it...for those interested. PS. I freely admit I have a lot to learn. Plus, I was limited in my ability to try out the camera. In order to qualify for exchange...I was limited to 120 minutes of use with camera...and time limit of one week. So, I'm sure I have not examine every aspect...considered EVERY angle. So, my decision...is based on best understanding...to date. And...I realize someone on forum might offer a different perspective that would be good to consider before making final decision. Though one big limitation is funds. At this point, I can't afford a more expensive camera. So, that's not an option. THANKS in advance for taking time to respond.

August 11th, 2005, 01:59 AM	#94
Sandra Warshaw Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2005 Posts: 26	BELOW IS BACKGROUND which I believe helps to explain why digital camcorders have trouble with lines (light lines against dark background). And...it's what led me to believe problem is common. FROM: PREMIERE for MACINTOSH & WINDOWS by Antony Bolante "Graphic elements that look good on a progressive scan monitor display poorly on an interlaced monitor. Due to interlacing, thin horizontal lines (or patterns containing thin horizontals) appear to flicker or vibrate. If a line is thin enough, it actually disappears with every scan of its field." [NOTE: I suspect that the spiralling colors results when the "line" disappears. But that's a guess.] (Sandra) Anthony Bolante...continued... "Avoid using light typefaces, thin lines, and tight patterns in images that are destined for television. If necessary, choose the Flicker Removal option in the Field Options dialog box." '"Flicker Removal" blurs the image so that thin horizontal details don't flicker due to interlacing." _________________ NOTE: I found it takes more than "flicker removal." I needed to use "blur" from "video effects". There are varous ones--to apply. It's a trial and error process. The first time I tried the "blur" effect, it didn't seem to work. But the "Quick Time" blur effect worked. And then others like "fast blur" helped. Yet, while the "blur" effect seems to eliminate the blur...it also diminishes sharpness/quality of image. ALSO...decreasing "sharpen" feature in camera helps...when shooting. Last edited by Sandra Warshaw; August 11th, 2005 at 04:02 AM.

December 1st, 2005, 12:55 AM	#104
Stephen Finton Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 344	Still Loving My HC1000s! I have not experienced the image problems mentioned here about them. In fact I've dropped one and it still works perfectly, although I do not suggest you try dropping them. I REALLY don't know what camcorderinfo.com was going on about in their "review" of the camera. They prove that they didn't even REALLY review the camcorder because the reviewer said that it's swivel design does not lend to low level shooting. In fact, they say it points at the sky. Check it out, though: http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v3...e/DSC00108.jpg

August 4th, 2005, 08:02 PM	#91
Stu Holmes Major Player Join Date: May 2005 Location: Europe Posts: 844	Hi Boyd / Steve Yep I think (if i may say so !) Boyd misquoted me slightly ther. what i actually said about the HC1000 / HC1 was that when you fix the shutter speed and then change the exposure manually (which of course you can do), you can't for all EV values, change ONLY aperture or ONLY the gain. It may well be in, say, middling light levels that when you change the exposure down, that the camera will be at 0db gain anyway, and so will just close the lens 1 stop, so yep that's in effect direct control of the aperture and the shutter speed BUT if light levels fall, say, and you manually increase exposure then you get to a point where the camera is at max.aperture and will have to go to +3dB gain. so that's the limitation really. - It does have 'shutter priority' mode (to draw a 35mm phrasing analogy) but it wouldve been nice if Sony had given us 'aperture priority' mode too, independent of gain. Quite why on the A1 Sony still haven't given the user the aperture, gain in-LCD during shooting i don't know. I can see their 'product positioning' guys saying "Oh HC1 is consumer camera so let's not give them that feature" but omitting it for A1 is a bit odd. Having said that i love my HC1000 to bits - it's a great camera and very similar, functionally, to the HC1 (which i'm getting as soon as i get back to a PAL country !) rgds

August 11th, 2005, 06:37 AM	#95
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	I don't know Sandra, I just can't see much of a problem in those examples, although the first camera seems to exhibit it more. It would be good to know what all the camera settings were. Did you shoot in full auto mode? Did you change any of the custom presets? Try viewing the data code (should be accessed via touch screen buttons) while playing the tape. It will tell you the aperture, shutter speed, etc. Also, as you note, the sharpness setting could be an issue. Go to custom preset (I assume this camera has them?) and I would suggest turning the sharpness all the way to the minimum, it should give you a nicer image that way, or at least it does on my PDX-10. I don't really see any of these problems on my PDX-10 which uses the same chips and sensors. BTW, I think B&H sells the HC-1000 for $1,400 and the PDX-10 for $1,600 (with rebate). If you can exchange I think the additional $200 would be very well spent considering all the additional features it has. But I don't think the problem is related to vertical smear at all. That would only happen on bright white areas in extreme conditions. Also, since you only see the problem on your TV screen... how is the camera connected to the TV? Are you using the composite (RCA) jacks? That's a very poor quality connection and shouldn't be a basis for quality decisions. Can your friend at the TV station hook the camera up or play the tape on a good monitor? Sorry, you've got me stumped here!

August 11th, 2005, 06:41 AM	#96
Stephen Finton Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 344	You wouldn't be talking to us at all, if you had a progressive scan camera. :)

August 12th, 2005, 06:58 AM	#98
Stephen Finton Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 344	Nice having something in common with you Sandra...if only for a little while. :( :)

August 31st, 2005, 06:46 AM	#99
Clint Newman New Boot Join Date: Apr 2004 Location: Australia, Gold Coast Posts: 10	Just wondering how the HC1000 would compare to a GL2 on the video quality side of things?

August 31st, 2005, 07:35 AM	#100
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	It will shoot much better 16:9 because of its high resolution CCD's. No frame movie mode though.

August 31st, 2005, 08:29 AM	#101
Tom Hardwick Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Billericay, England UK Posts: 4,711	Boyd's right in answering your specific question; the 1000 is a much newer design than the GL series. But if you'd asked us both, "which camera is the better machine?" I bet we'd both have come up with a different answer. tom.

August 31st, 2005, 09:09 AM	#102
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	Hmm... I am not much of an HC-1000 fan if that's what you're implying. The tiny battery and elimination of physical manual controls put it pretty low on my list. The manual controls on the GL-2 are going to make it more attractive. I'm sure you can produce great results with either of these cameras though, since the camera itself is only part of the equation. But honestly, neither of these cameras would make my short list today...

September 5th, 2005, 01:11 AM	#103
Stephen Finton Major Player Join Date: Jun 2005 Location: Houston, TX Posts: 344	I honestly like not having the buttons on the outside of the camera. It forces me to setup my shot ahead of time and not ride the settings while I video. I know this sounds like a cop-out but I have had video shot by people who were just helping us using cameras other than the HC1000 and they wouldn't leave the damn exposure alone. We just shot a little independent film a couple of months ago and I set the cameras and forgot it. I did have one person switch it to auto focus but we had no scenes that required any movement in the foreground, so everything was just right when we went to edit everything together.