TRV950 (& PDx10?) Looks great, less filling. But...

Craig Peer · August 12th, 2002, 05:45 PM

Doesn't the 950 have the small 1/6" ccd's? Perhaps smear is the smaller ccd's weak spot compared to the larger ( 1/4" and up ) ccd!

Jeff Donald · August 12th, 2002, 06:03 PM

The TRV 950 uses 1/4.7 inch CCD (3) with 690k pixels available for video and 1,000k for still photography. Smear is not related to the size CCD's, but rather, as Mike and I discussed above, electrical current leaking.

Jeff

Mike Rehmus · August 12th, 2002, 06:17 PM

Them paying the shipping bill is more than they did for me when my PD-150 packed it in after 6 hours of operation. I had to pay a lot to get it down to Atlanta.

At least they are responding.

BTW, you know a reflector or a small on-camera light would probably clear up the problem by reducing the luminance ratio?

Steven Forrest · August 12th, 2002, 06:40 PM

Mike,
I can be pretty persuasive and if I get the right representative, I often get them to do things for me like pay for the shipping back to them. Other less aggressive people might not get all they are entitled to.
In any case, could you explain the way a small light on the camera could help reduce the vertical smear? Over what kind of distance would the light help reduce the smear? Probably not when the strong light is across the gym and the subject is on the gym floor, would it?
Thanks.
Steve

Mike Rehmus · August 13th, 2002, 12:17 AM

The light would help on the closeups that I saw. What you are trying to do is reduce the lighting ratio. Since the closeups are just that, the small light, being close, will allow you (or the camera on auto mode) to close down a bit, perhaps avoiding the streaks. Only way to find out is to try it. At some level of on-camera light, the ratio will be acceptable (e.g., the light will not overdrive the CCDs)

You would need quite a strong light to fill in the gym floor. The best solution for the gym is to not include the windows in your framing. The foreground is probably more interesting anyway.

Kenn Jolemore · August 13th, 2002, 05:09 AM

As a short aside to correct any thoughts garnered from this post that the trv-950's all have this problem I want to interject the other side of the coin . After being contacted by another 950 user on this problem I spent the morning and afternoon hours of the day trying to get my 950 to show similar problems. I suceeeded in getting 1 setup(one I would never use to frame a shot BTW) that caused a few red lines to show in the area between the light(strong early morning sun through a large window) and shadow.
Like all products manufactured these days all you can do is buy from a vender who will accept returns if you get a bad camcorder and check you equiptment well as soon as you recieve it. Short of that don't buy on-line and check your goods before you leave the store.

Steven Forrest · August 13th, 2002, 07:33 AM

Kenn,
The other " 950 owner" who you refer to is probably the same person who contacted me. We have both pursued the problem with our camcorders and thus have gotten Sony to respond in a very responsible way. They will have our camcorders picked up by FedEx at our homes today and sent overnight to Sony in San Diego. There, they will be examined by a camcorder specialist. The extent of the problem with each of our units will be determined and the course of action for each of us will be planned. We are both very happy with this action by Sony and so far feel that they really do want us to have good camcorders. Hopefully we both will end up with 950s like yours that have minimal, if any, smear problem.

Mike,
Thanks for the light input. About the gym pictures, after an initial shot of the gym with the high windows overwhelming the top of the picture and causing the smear, I then panned downwards and only had the floor and kids on it, without the windows. The lines persisted though. Once you get the smear, you seem to have it all the time. Would stopping the shot and then restarting on the floor only, without the windows in the frame at all, have prevented some of the smear do you think? If so, I guess the way we set-up shots is really vital in getting good pictures form the 950!
Thanks.
Steve

Mike Rehmus · August 13th, 2002, 10:38 AM

I would expect the CCDs to recover fairly quickly (immediately in fact) and the streaks to disappear without stopping the recording.
Grasping at straws here, could it be that lens flare is that strong in that camera? Do you have any filters on the front of the camera? A dirty lens? (no offense intended but a lens out near the beach, for example, will get a film on the front surface after a while.)

If Sony comes back with a fix. Try and ask them what was wrong in terms that are meaningful to all of us.

At separate occasions, bot with a VX-1000 and a PC-110 I have shot into light so strong that the viewfinder displays a negative color image (no the sun was not in the shot but the lens flare was that strong). The recorded image was much better than what i saw in the viewfinder and the cameras recovered as fast as I could point the lens another direction. These were must-have shots of actors and we completed the scenes before I moved the camera.

Steven Forrest · August 13th, 2002, 11:26 AM

Mike,
I'm pretty sure my lens was clean but maybe some sort of filter would be helpful. Any suggestions from anyone on a good all around filter to use to cut down on lens flare or smearing due to the CCDs?
I wonder if a larger lens shade would be helpful? I'm not sure if the shade comes off and could be replaced. I've already packed the unit up for shippment back to Sony so I can't check this out now. Does anyone know?
Thanks.
Steve

Mike Rehmus · August 13th, 2002, 11:37 AM

It would have had to have been quite dirty. On the level that your windshield gets when the car has been in the sun all day.

A filter won't stop the streaks or flare. But it could contribute if it were not anti-reflection coated.

One normally runs a clear filter on the front of the lens to intercept dirt and scratches before they get to the lens.

I expect the lens shade to be removable but it is probably at max size now for your wide angle. One can get very expensive attachments to stop the stray light that does not image but hits the lens. That should not be required.

Steven Forrest · August 13th, 2002, 11:59 AM

I wonder what a polarizer would do?
Steve

Kenn Jolemore · August 13th, 2002, 12:12 PM

The lens shade does come off and there is room behind it to use a filter . I keep a UV filter on mine and sometime put a polarizer on for bright exterior shots or sky shots. This was one of the improvments that actually came through from the 900. There is a reasonable amount of space between the hood and the lens.

Mike Rehmus · August 13th, 2002, 04:08 PM

A polarizer is used typically to darken the sky that is around 90 degrees from the sun and to kill the reflections from glass and metalic objects. It can also help when you want to shoot into water to see objects under the surface by reducing surface reflections. It won't help your streaking problem.

It will also tend to saturate colors that are otherwise sort of washed out by reflections.

Every situation is different when you use one.

Mike Rehmus · August 13th, 2002, 04:10 PM

I've closed this thread because we are getting off base with regard to the initial posting.

When Sony comes back with an answer on the 950's please open a new post and we'll take it from there.

Best,

Mike

August 12th, 2002, 06:17 PM	#33
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	Them paying the shipping bill is more than they did for me when my PD-150 packed it in after 6 hours of operation. I had to pay a lot to get it down to Atlanta. At least they are responding. BTW, you know a reflector or a small on-camera light would probably clear up the problem by reducing the luminance ratio? __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 13th, 2002, 12:17 AM	#35
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	The light would help on the closeups that I saw. What you are trying to do is reduce the lighting ratio. Since the closeups are just that, the small light, being close, will allow you (or the camera on auto mode) to close down a bit, perhaps avoiding the streaks. Only way to find out is to try it. At some level of on-camera light, the ratio will be acceptable (e.g., the light will not overdrive the CCDs) You would need quite a strong light to fill in the gym floor. The best solution for the gym is to not include the windows in your framing. The foreground is probably more interesting anyway. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 13th, 2002, 05:09 AM	#36
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	As a short aside to correct any thoughts garnered from this post that the trv-950's all have this problem I want to interject the other side of the coin . After being contacted by another 950 user on this problem I spent the morning and afternoon hours of the day trying to get my 950 to show similar problems. I suceeeded in getting 1 setup(one I would never use to frame a shot BTW) that caused a few red lines to show in the area between the light(strong early morning sun through a large window) and shadow. Like all products manufactured these days all you can do is buy from a vender who will accept returns if you get a bad camcorder and check you equiptment well as soon as you recieve it. Short of that don't buy on-line and check your goods before you leave the store. __________________ KennJ

August 13th, 2002, 10:38 AM	#38
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	I would expect the CCDs to recover fairly quickly (immediately in fact) and the streaks to disappear without stopping the recording. Grasping at straws here, could it be that lens flare is that strong in that camera? Do you have any filters on the front of the camera? A dirty lens? (no offense intended but a lens out near the beach, for example, will get a film on the front surface after a while.) If Sony comes back with a fix. Try and ask them what was wrong in terms that are meaningful to all of us. At separate occasions, bot with a VX-1000 and a PC-110 I have shot into light so strong that the viewfinder displays a negative color image (no the sun was not in the shot but the lens flare was that strong). The recorded image was much better than what i saw in the viewfinder and the cameras recovered as fast as I could point the lens another direction. These were must-have shots of actors and we completed the scenes before I moved the camera. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 13th, 2002, 11:37 AM	#40
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	It would have had to have been quite dirty. On the level that your windshield gets when the car has been in the sun all day. A filter won't stop the streaks or flare. But it could contribute if it were not anti-reflection coated. One normally runs a clear filter on the front of the lens to intercept dirt and scratches before they get to the lens. I expect the lens shade to be removable but it is probably at max size now for your wide angle. One can get very expensive attachments to stop the stray light that does not image but hits the lens. That should not be required. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 12th, 2002, 05:45 PM	#31
Craig Peer Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Sacramento, CA Posts: 72	Doesn't the 950 have the small 1/6" ccd's? Perhaps smear is the smaller ccd's weak spot compared to the larger ( 1/4" and up ) ccd!

August 12th, 2002, 06:03 PM	#32
Jeff Donald Warden Join Date: Mar 2002 Location: Clearwater, FL Posts: 8,287	The TRV 950 uses 1/4.7 inch CCD (3) with 690k pixels available for video and 1,000k for still photography. Smear is not related to the size CCD's, but rather, as Mike and I discussed above, electrical current leaking. Jeff

August 12th, 2002, 06:40 PM	#34
Steven Forrest Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lake Oswego, OR Posts: 43	Mike, I can be pretty persuasive and if I get the right representative, I often get them to do things for me like pay for the shipping back to them. Other less aggressive people might not get all they are entitled to. In any case, could you explain the way a small light on the camera could help reduce the vertical smear? Over what kind of distance would the light help reduce the smear? Probably not when the strong light is across the gym and the subject is on the gym floor, would it? Thanks. Steve

August 13th, 2002, 07:33 AM	#37
Steven Forrest Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lake Oswego, OR Posts: 43	Kenn, The other " 950 owner" who you refer to is probably the same person who contacted me. We have both pursued the problem with our camcorders and thus have gotten Sony to respond in a very responsible way. They will have our camcorders picked up by FedEx at our homes today and sent overnight to Sony in San Diego. There, they will be examined by a camcorder specialist. The extent of the problem with each of our units will be determined and the course of action for each of us will be planned. We are both very happy with this action by Sony and so far feel that they really do want us to have good camcorders. Hopefully we both will end up with 950s like yours that have minimal, if any, smear problem. Mike, Thanks for the light input. About the gym pictures, after an initial shot of the gym with the high windows overwhelming the top of the picture and causing the smear, I then panned downwards and only had the floor and kids on it, without the windows. The lines persisted though. Once you get the smear, you seem to have it all the time. Would stopping the shot and then restarting on the floor only, without the windows in the frame at all, have prevented some of the smear do you think? If so, I guess the way we set-up shots is really vital in getting good pictures form the 950! Thanks. Steve

August 13th, 2002, 11:26 AM	#39
Steven Forrest Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lake Oswego, OR Posts: 43	Mike, I'm pretty sure my lens was clean but maybe some sort of filter would be helpful. Any suggestions from anyone on a good all around filter to use to cut down on lens flare or smearing due to the CCDs? I wonder if a larger lens shade would be helpful? I'm not sure if the shade comes off and could be replaced. I've already packed the unit up for shippment back to Sony so I can't check this out now. Does anyone know? Thanks. Steve

August 13th, 2002, 11:59 AM	#41
Steven Forrest Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Lake Oswego, OR Posts: 43	I wonder what a polarizer would do? Steve

August 13th, 2002, 12:12 PM	#42
Kenn Jolemore Regular Crew Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: norfolk Va. Posts: 124	The lens shade does come off and there is room behind it to use a filter . I keep a UV filter on mine and sometime put a polarizer on for bright exterior shots or sky shots. This was one of the improvments that actually came through from the 900. There is a reasonable amount of space between the hood and the lens. __________________ KennJ

August 13th, 2002, 04:08 PM	#43
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	A polarizer is used typically to darken the sky that is around 90 degrees from the sun and to kill the reflections from glass and metalic objects. It can also help when you want to shoot into water to see objects under the surface by reducing surface reflections. It won't help your streaking problem. It will also tend to saturate colors that are otherwise sort of washed out by reflections. Every situation is different when you use one. __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!

August 13th, 2002, 04:10 PM	#44
Mike Rehmus Wrangler Join Date: May 2002 Location: Vallejo, California Posts: 4,049	This thread is closed I've closed this thread because we are getting off base with regard to the initial posting. When Sony comes back with an answer on the 950's please open a new post and we'll take it from there. Best, Mike __________________ Mike Rehmus Hey, I can see the carrot at the end of the tunnel!