no stereo with I-link

Jan Roovers · November 22nd, 2003, 01:40 PM

Usually I use the directional mono micropone of the cam.
But now I found out that importing stereo through my IEEE 1394 port seems to be a problem.

Trying out had the next result:
stereorecordings at 32k are imported to the PC in stereo,
stereorecordings at 48k are imported to the PC as mono.
Both recordings can be played in stereo through the headphones.
( I recorded with the internal mics)

I tried several NLE programs under which the programs that Sony delivered with the cam.

I am working with windows XP and the I-link controller is the
"via ohci compliant ieee 1394 host controller".
This standard Windows controller should be correct.

Who can help me? Something seems to be wrong. But I don't have a clue.

Do I do something wrong? Does it work with you?
Can the cable be a problem?

Boyd Ostroff · November 22nd, 2003, 02:06 PM

All I know is that I have recorded in 48k stereo often and it has always imported as expected in Final Cut Pro. But it seems to me that I've seen a discussion of this problem before, either here or possibly on another site. Unfortunately I don't recall the resolution, if any...

Jay Massengill · November 23rd, 2003, 12:09 AM

Yes, it's been a problem with several NLE's and PDX-10 originated footage. I've heard that you can use Scenalyser capture software to bring in your clips in stereo, then edit the clips as usual in your NLE. I haven't tried this out yet because I haven't shot any footage that absolutely had to be split tracked or stereo.
I'm using Vegas for editing and it's a known problem.

Jan Roovers · November 23rd, 2003, 06:39 AM

Importing with Sceneanalyser WORKS!
I have stereo now.
You saved some important recordings for me!

Thanks very much for the advise.
So it is not the cam, not the cable, not the 1394 card or PC; it is the software!

Sceneanalyser indicates not to use the Sony driver but a Windows IEEE 1394 camdriver. Maybe the driver is more a problem as the NLE programs. I use Premiere Pro.

I think I will phone sony support centre monday to inform them and drop this problem.

Are there other users who have experienced the same problems?

Julian Luttrell · November 24th, 2003, 09:33 AM

I've experienced something similar:

my client sends me a miniDV tape recorded on their Canon XM1 (PAL GL1).

If I play it on my DSR-11 over headphones all audio is there.

Capturing over 1394 from the same DSR-11 - no audio. Other tapes captured at exactly the same settings (ie: eject wierd tape, insert another tape) have audio fine.

Dubbing from DSR-11 to PDX10 over 1394 - the audio transfers fine (that is: I can play the audio from the dubbed tape on the DSR-11 over headphones). But I can't capture audio over 1394 from the dubbed tape!!

Recently I got another tape from her. Expecting trouble, I tested it out. Sure enough, capturing from DSR-11 gave broken audio over 1394, but OK audio over headphones. But the same tape (not dubbed) gives good audio when captured over 1394 from my PDX10.

Trying other capture computers - there is no audio problem capturing the first tape over 1394 from the same DSR-11 to my Sony Vaio.

I'm confused as hell about this one. The only thing I can agree is that it looks like a driver issue - the same data (this _is_ just file transfer after all) is interpreted in different ways depending on what is reading the data.

Regards,

Julian

Jan Roovers · November 24th, 2003, 10:36 AM

Julian,

Your problem is even more mysterious! I always thought that IEEE1394 was a kind of a standard. But the way the different channels such as video and the 2 or 4 audio-channels are defined, transported and recognised clearly is not standard.

Your problem is combined/doubled with the problems of different writing/recording to tape. I remember that Canon uses different trackings on tape. The audiotracks seem to be placed more at the outside of the tape.

I phoned today with Sony support to explain my problem. They did not know the problem, they said. They will cal me back. I hope they will do it and will do it soon.

The problem confuses me to. I cannot imagine what can cause the problem.

Jan Roovers · November 25th, 2003, 12:18 PM

Sony answered today. I spoke with Frank Fijm residing in England:

Sony: "The PDX10(p) writes a special marker to define the 4 audio channels that are used. This marker is not recognised by some third party software. Sony can and will not change that."

Me: " I do'nt believe that companies as Adobe will not be able to understand Sony's markers as they make a special PDX10(p) driver. Iff they could not, they would
1. not make a dedicated driver;
2. announce that the PDX10 was not totally supported.
Above that the Software that is delivered with the PDX10 has the same problem.
One may expect from Sony - where they support iLink- that Sony indicates how the the DV-signal can be exported through this iLink to the PC or when that is not obvious that Sony delivers software to do so. "

My comment:
I think that it is not very acceptable that the user will remain in complete darkness how to get the signal to the PC and if his NLE will accept the signal. We don't play roulette here! It is not an amateur cam.

Personally I doubt about the answer, but as an enduser I don't want to have to think about such a problem. It may not occur with respected NLE's. That is Sony's responsibility in the market.

The guy from Sony was very friendly and he stated that this was the offical statement from Sony, but I told him that the answer from Sony is not satisfying and not professional to me and I promised to write a letter, not believing that Sony would allow to write such an answer officially on paper. (If so I will publish that here in PDF). May be other forummembers will write also a complaint to Sony. It helped before( PM: soundproblem PD150).

I conclude that Sony did not deny the problem, but refuses in the first instance to solve the problem. So we have to give second instance a chance.

I told Sony that the answer would be written here in the forum.

What do you think?

Ron Bird · December 1st, 2003, 05:55 PM

Jan,

I also solve the problem by using SClive to capture PDX10 48K stereo as was suggested in this forum earlier this year. It seems that the problem is not just the capture software it also tied to the PDX10. The reason I say this is, Vegas, Ulead and Pinnacle all capture 48K stereo from my Sony TRV 120E D8 camera without any problem whereas 48K captures from the the PDX10 will always be mono even though the stereo is on the tape.

I would be interested to know if any VX950 owners have experienced this problem as maybe it is tied in with the DVcam capability of the PDX10! Any VX950 owners seen this problem?

Bottome line is; why do SClive and FCP capture 48K stereo OK and other capture programs do not? Is it because they use the same basic engine in their capture software (eg the old MS vidcap) ?

This problem has also been raised in one of the Vegas forums and the Vegas support people could only suggest using another capture program. Another knowledgable person suggested that Sony have varied the Firewire 1394 spec. in the PDX10.

I agree Sony need to come clean as to why the PDX10 has this shortcoming and other cameras including other Sony models do not!

BTW Jan, great WEB site and I refer to it often. It influenced my decision to buy the PDX10.

Chris Long · December 1st, 2003, 10:19 PM

<<<-- Originally posted by Ron Bird :
BTW Jan, great WEB site and I refer to it often. It influenced my decision to buy the PDX10. -->>>

I agree wholeheartedly!! I spent quite a bit of time there the other day. In the process I think I fell in love with Willeke Alberti, even though I wasn't familiar with her before! What is the name of the song she sings on stage at the Canalparade? The one that has a melancholy melody? I'm afraid I can't speak Dutch... :^(

Her backup singers aren't bad, either ;^)

Jan Roovers · December 3rd, 2003, 01:06 AM

<<<-- Originally posted by Chris Long :
I agree wholeheartedly!! I spent quite a bit of time there the other day. In the process I think I fell in love with Willeke Alberti, even though I wasn't familiar with her before! What is the name of the song she sings on stage at the Canalparade? The one that has a melancholy melody? I'm afraid I can't speak Dutch... :^(

Her backup singers aren't bad, either ;^) -->>>

Willeke is very kind and easy. She is very populair as her father Willy Alberti was too.
The song title is: "Telkens Weer". It originates form the film "Rooie Sien" from Frans Weisz in 1975 and became a hit in Holland.

Thanks for all the compliments.

November 22nd, 2003, 01:40 PM	#1
Jan Roovers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amsterdam NL -Turnhout BE Posts: 158	no stereo with I-link - please help! Usually I use the directional mono micropone of the cam. But now I found out that importing stereo through my IEEE 1394 port seems to be a problem. Trying out had the next result: stereorecordings at 32k are imported to the PC in stereo, stereorecordings at 48k are imported to the PC as mono. Both recordings can be played in stereo through the headphones. ( I recorded with the internal mics) I tried several NLE programs under which the programs that Sony delivered with the cam. I am working with windows XP and the I-link controller is the "via ohci compliant ieee 1394 host controller". This standard Windows controller should be correct. Who can help me? Something seems to be wrong. But I don't have a clue. Do I do something wrong? Does it work with you? Can the cable be a problem? __________________ ___________ Jan Roovers www.jtv.be

November 23rd, 2003, 06:39 AM	#4
Jan Roovers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amsterdam NL -Turnhout BE Posts: 158	thanks!!! Importing with Sceneanalyser WORKS! I have stereo now. You saved some important recordings for me! Thanks very much for the advise. So it is not the cam, not the cable, not the 1394 card or PC; it is the software! Sceneanalyser indicates not to use the Sony driver but a Windows IEEE 1394 camdriver. Maybe the driver is more a problem as the NLE programs. I use Premiere Pro. I think I will phone sony support centre monday to inform them and drop this problem. Are there other users who have experienced the same problems? __________________ ___________ Jan Roovers www.jtv.be

November 24th, 2003, 09:33 AM	#5
Julian Luttrell Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2002 Location: Cambridge, UK Posts: 164	Losing audio on 1394 capture I've experienced something similar: my client sends me a miniDV tape recorded on their Canon XM1 (PAL GL1). If I play it on my DSR-11 over headphones all audio is there. Capturing over 1394 from the same DSR-11 - no audio. Other tapes captured at exactly the same settings (ie: eject wierd tape, insert another tape) have audio fine. Dubbing from DSR-11 to PDX10 over 1394 - the audio transfers fine (that is: I can play the audio from the dubbed tape on the DSR-11 over headphones). But I can't capture audio over 1394 from the dubbed tape!! Recently I got another tape from her. Expecting trouble, I tested it out. Sure enough, capturing from DSR-11 gave broken audio over 1394, but OK audio over headphones. But the same tape (not dubbed) gives good audio when captured over 1394 from my PDX10. Trying other capture computers - there is no audio problem capturing the first tape over 1394 from the same DSR-11 to my Sony Vaio. I'm confused as hell about this one. The only thing I can agree is that it looks like a driver issue - the same data (this _is_ just file transfer after all) is interpreted in different ways depending on what is reading the data. Regards, Julian

November 24th, 2003, 10:36 AM	#6
Jan Roovers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amsterdam NL -Turnhout BE Posts: 158	Julian, Your problem is even more mysterious! I always thought that IEEE1394 was a kind of a standard. But the way the different channels such as video and the 2 or 4 audio-channels are defined, transported and recognised clearly is not standard. Your problem is combined/doubled with the problems of different writing/recording to tape. I remember that Canon uses different trackings on tape. The audiotracks seem to be placed more at the outside of the tape. I phoned today with Sony support to explain my problem. They did not know the problem, they said. They will cal me back. I hope they will do it and will do it soon. The problem confuses me to. I cannot imagine what can cause the problem. __________________ ___________ Jan Roovers www.jtv.be

November 25th, 2003, 12:18 PM	#7
Jan Roovers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amsterdam NL -Turnhout BE Posts: 158	Sony's answer Sony answered today. I spoke with Frank Fijm residing in England: Sony: "The PDX10(p) writes a special marker to define the 4 audio channels that are used. This marker is not recognised by some third party software. Sony can and will not change that." Me: " I do'nt believe that companies as Adobe will not be able to understand Sony's markers as they make a special PDX10(p) driver. Iff they could not, they would 1. not make a dedicated driver; 2. announce that the PDX10 was not totally supported. Above that the Software that is delivered with the PDX10 has the same problem. One may expect from Sony - where they support iLink- that Sony indicates how the the DV-signal can be exported through this iLink to the PC or when that is not obvious that Sony delivers software to do so. " My comment: I think that it is not very acceptable that the user will remain in complete darkness how to get the signal to the PC and if his NLE will accept the signal. We don't play roulette here! It is not an amateur cam. Personally I doubt about the answer, but as an enduser I don't want to have to think about such a problem. It may not occur with respected NLE's. That is Sony's responsibility in the market. The guy from Sony was very friendly and he stated that this was the offical statement from Sony, but I told him that the answer from Sony is not satisfying and not professional to me and I promised to write a letter, not believing that Sony would allow to write such an answer officially on paper. (If so I will publish that here in PDF). May be other forummembers will write also a complaint to Sony. It helped before( PM: soundproblem PD150). I conclude that Sony did not deny the problem, but refuses in the first instance to solve the problem. So we have to give second instance a chance. I told Sony that the answer would be written here in the forum. What do you think? __________________ ___________ Jan Roovers www.jtv.be

November 22nd, 2003, 02:06 PM	#2
Boyd Ostroff Wrangler Join Date: Dec 2002 Location: Mays Landing, NJ Posts: 11,802	All I know is that I have recorded in 48k stereo often and it has always imported as expected in Final Cut Pro. But it seems to me that I've seen a discussion of this problem before, either here or possibly on another site. Unfortunately I don't recall the resolution, if any...

November 23rd, 2003, 12:09 AM	#3
Jay Massengill Trustee Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Burlington Posts: 1,976	Yes, it's been a problem with several NLE's and PDX-10 originated footage. I've heard that you can use Scenalyser capture software to bring in your clips in stereo, then edit the clips as usual in your NLE. I haven't tried this out yet because I haven't shot any footage that absolutely had to be split tracked or stereo. I'm using Vegas for editing and it's a known problem.

December 1st, 2003, 05:55 PM	#8
Ron Bird Tourist Join Date: Nov 2003 Location: Melbourne Australia Posts: 3	PDX10 48K stereo capture problem Jan, I also solve the problem by using SClive to capture PDX10 48K stereo as was suggested in this forum earlier this year. It seems that the problem is not just the capture software it also tied to the PDX10. The reason I say this is, Vegas, Ulead and Pinnacle all capture 48K stereo from my Sony TRV 120E D8 camera without any problem whereas 48K captures from the the PDX10 will always be mono even though the stereo is on the tape. I would be interested to know if any VX950 owners have experienced this problem as maybe it is tied in with the DVcam capability of the PDX10! Any VX950 owners seen this problem? Bottome line is; why do SClive and FCP capture 48K stereo OK and other capture programs do not? Is it because they use the same basic engine in their capture software (eg the old MS vidcap) ? This problem has also been raised in one of the Vegas forums and the Vegas support people could only suggest using another capture program. Another knowledgable person suggested that Sony have varied the Firewire 1394 spec. in the PDX10. I agree Sony need to come clean as to why the PDX10 has this shortcoming and other cameras including other Sony models do not! BTW Jan, great WEB site and I refer to it often. It influenced my decision to buy the PDX10.

December 1st, 2003, 10:19 PM	#9
Chris Long Regular Crew Join Date: Jul 2003 Location: Middletown, Maryland USA Posts: 177	Re: PDX10 48K stereo capture problem <<<-- Originally posted by Ron Bird : BTW Jan, great WEB site and I refer to it often. It influenced my decision to buy the PDX10. -->>> I agree wholeheartedly!! I spent quite a bit of time there the other day. In the process I think I fell in love with Willeke Alberti, even though I wasn't familiar with her before! What is the name of the song she sings on stage at the Canalparade? The one that has a melancholy melody? I'm afraid I can't speak Dutch... :^( Her backup singers aren't bad, either ;^)

December 3rd, 2003, 01:06 AM	#10
Jan Roovers Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Amsterdam NL -Turnhout BE Posts: 158	Re: Re: PDX10 48K stereo capture problem <<<-- Originally posted by Chris Long : I agree wholeheartedly!! I spent quite a bit of time there the other day. In the process I think I fell in love with Willeke Alberti, even though I wasn't familiar with her before! What is the name of the song she sings on stage at the Canalparade? The one that has a melancholy melody? I'm afraid I can't speak Dutch... :^( Her backup singers aren't bad, either ;^) -->>> Willeke is very kind and easy. She is very populair as her father Willy Alberti was too. The song title is: "Telkens Weer". It originates form the film "Rooie Sien" from Frans Weisz in 1975 and became a hit in Holland. Thanks for all the compliments. __________________ ___________ Jan Roovers www.jtv.be