Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Dave Blackhurst · December 7th, 2013, 05:18 PM

@Ron -

There's definitely no "free lunch" - up your data rate, it'll cost ya! My main observation was that this PARTICULAR sensor/processor combo supposedly is taking the data off the chip at full rez and dealing with it, albeit crunching it down to 28Mbps 1080p (or whatever the user chooses). Not sure how much difference there is between crunching it down and outputting a 4k "stream"... somehow it seems like it shouldn't be that bad? But going from indications on the Z100 and AX1, memory is a SERIOUS bottleneck/expense/format issue.

I know the NEX APS-C sensors are notorious due to tiny body size, but I've not run into issues with the larger body Alphas, and the RX100/M2 seem to be fine heat wise... it's not a guaranteed headache, just a common one. There are anecdotal reports that the type of memory used can affect the heat problems too, so again, there may be something about trying to stuff larger data streams into certain memory cards...

Ahh, the joys of the bleeding edge...

Bill Koehler · December 7th, 2013, 07:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

The FDR-AX1 will shoot 1920x1080 at 50Mbps I do not see much of a difference to the NX5U at 24Mbps though as I have not done a lot of testing.

Ron Evans

I haven't done much testing either but I would expect a difference because...

1) The chips in the NX5U are not full HD chips. They are about half that and play offset pixel interpolation tricks to synthesize a FullHD image. The payoff for Sony at the time was bigger pixels/greater light sensitivity. The FDR-AX1 doesn't need to do this to get a FullHD image so I would be a bit shocked if it didn't have a higher resolution image.
2) It has been demonstrated the FDR-AX1 low light sensitivity is nothing to write home about. The standard tradeoff made for a higher resolution (smaller pixels) image.

Ron Evans · December 8th, 2013, 09:25 AM

For Dave: The data rate for 4K on the FDR-AX1 is max 150Mbps or about 19MBps well within the data rate for SD class 10 cards. I can certainly read and write to my Patriot class 10 EP cards at this rate. Spec is 35MBps write 50MBps read The 600Mbps for the PXW-Z100 is 4 times this so more than a SD card can do at the moment until the new series is available. Readout from the sensor and scale in a fixed ratio is likely an easy hardware task but encoding in longGOP at an acceptably low data rate is not easy and requires a lot of compute power. As I think I mentioned in an earlier post it takes my i7 3770 with 16G RAM a long time to encode XAVCS, far from realtime. As an example in Vegas 12 with a FDR-AX1 60P 11 sec clip on the timeline and just render back to the same thing XAVC-S with no effects at all my PC took 97 secs at Turbo boost running at 4Mhz. It took 19 secs to scale the same clip to 1920x1080 AVCHD 60P. So it took 5 times longer to do the encode to XAVC-S format. So the general CPU can not quiet do realtime scale but should be easy hardware task.

Bill: I am aware of the sensor layout for the NX5U. The bigger sensor allow better signal to noise ratios and are about 2 times the size of the actual 1920x1080 pixels and the interpolated pixels will take the values from 4 surrounding sensors to arrive at a value. With data array smoothing this interpolation should be reasonable. Since almost all camcorders process the sensor output to smooth date, correct for fault sensors etc etc whether the data comes from a 1:1 sensor pixel arrangement or an interpolated/corrected array is in my mind no difference as long as the apparent pixel size is the same. In the case of the NX5U this is the case. The NX5U sensor issue is that they are old design sensors !!!!

My comparisons are to setting the FDR-AX1 to 1920x1080 and comparing. This will be an internal scale and I have not done a lot of comparisons but the few I have done do not see a startling difference. Very much like my NX30 or CX700 sort of image and very close to my HX30V still camera which I am presuming has the same sensor !!! I expected to see an obvious improvement since it would be recording at 50Mbps XAVC-S not 24Mbps etc. The downscaled image in Edius using Lanczos 3 though is lovely but as you say needs light !!! It is between 1 and 2 stops slower than the others close to the HX30V though !!!! . It took me a year to get my NX5U set up with picture profiles etc so comparing to a default set up for the FDR-AX1 may not be fair. A downside to the FDR-AX1 is that although there is a paint function there is only one and no on off setting on a button !!! A backward step as others on the camcorder. Hopefully a future firmware update will improve the camcorder.

The FDR-AX1 with the RX10 sensor would be nice though !!!

Ron Evans

Noa Put · December 8th, 2013, 06:44 PM

Just to get this thread back on track; has any owner of this camera been shooting with it yet? Normally I plan to go to the city Bruges this week to shoot some footage, just to get some hands on experience as I plan to use the camera at a wedding this Saturday. I have been going through the menu just now and assigning functions to the buttons on the camera for quick access, this camera has some powerful functionality.

I assigned the iso settings to the scroll wheel so while I"m shooting I can scroll the wheel and the iso values pop up and go up or down depending what direction you turn the wheel so that's an instant change while you turn the wheel, that was what I missed most on my nex-ea50, this makes changing Iso during run and gun a breeze.

I also assigned the nd filter to a button which requires pushing one button to bring up the nd selection and then use the scroll wheel to go up/down and press enter to activate, takes 2 secs to activate the nd filter, awesome. :)

I also have the audio levels assigned to a button, just press it and it pops up and use the scroll wheel to in- or decrease the volume. Then I also have one button which brings up 12 other functions in a small menu I can scroll through to change any other value quickly, I can also change from manual to auto focus with teh press of a button and the peaking does a very good job, Sony has really given this some good thought.

One thing I don't like is the speed of the zoom, don't know why but in standy mode the zoom speed is slow but ok to use, only in record mode it becomes much slower, up to the point that it's too slow for real life use. must be a setting I hope.

The very few test shots I made are bloody sharp and I"m able to get sufficient shallow dof, what I had hoped for, setting exposure with the zebra's is real easy and the iris ring is buttery smooth, I did notice that burned highlights issue I have seen in other videos but I find it's mainly a matter of setting your exposure right manually and if necessary bring the highlights back to 100 (even with what seemed to have a correct exposure the highlights where at 110 ire.)

Darren Levine · December 8th, 2013, 06:52 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

has any owner of this camera been shooting with it yet?

https://vimeo.com/groups/219595

Noa Put · December 8th, 2013, 06:54 PM

I was expecting some written experience :) I've seen the footage so far, but was more asking how users are experiencing the camera so far.

Darren Levine · December 8th, 2013, 07:00 PM

Comon Noa, catchup on the thread before asking, i posted this just the last page, and there's a lot of write-ups to be googled

Sony RX10: A truly first of it's kind bridge camera with a versatile lens and tons of good details. Review

first page of google...

Photography blog
http://www.photographyblog.com/revie...c_rx10_review/

Imaging resource
http://www.imaging-resource.com/news...ngeable-lenses

Pocket Lint
http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/12...ot-rx10-review

ephotozine
http://www.ephotozine.com/article/so...0-review-23331

Noa Put · December 8th, 2013, 07:03 PM

I have seen those but I am still asking for user experiences in general, is that ok for you? I thought this was a forum...

Darren Levine · December 8th, 2013, 07:09 PM

absolutely, but that's not what you wrote and what i responded to. perhaps you meant it another way

Noa Put · December 8th, 2013, 07:15 PM

I think it's clear by now what I"m asking, no need to continue to make a point as it doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion.

Jim Giberti · December 8th, 2013, 08:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

I was expecting some written experience :) I've seen the footage so far, but was more asking how users are experiencing the camera so far.

Mine arrives tomorrow and I'll be shooting it all week beside the new BMPCC.

Dave Blackhurst · December 9th, 2013, 12:37 AM

Glad to hear you're getting on with yours Noa - I am holding off as other holiday expenses take precedence!

Even though I don't have one in hand, experience with the RX100/M2 (and to some extent the HX100-300 series) gives me a fair estimation of how the camera will "feel", and I look forward to getting at least one - I am selling a few other things that it will replace, maybe if enough of them go to good new homes, I'll bag one. I have a serious natural aversion to paying "retail", but the RX10 is dangerously close to overcoming that... and Santa has been notified, extensively! I also know there will be some of these come up lightly used when "average users" discover this camera is WAAAAAAY over their heads, and they can't figure out how to use it - it always happens!

The reports of the slow zoom seem to be a "feature", hopefully something firmware can address.

I think what you're wondering about is what "user customized menus" are people finding useful? That is a good discussion question, as the camera has a lot of room to customize. ISO, WB, DRO, and EV shift were my main choices on the RX100/M2 (IIRC up to six selections pulled up by the Fn button) - EV shift has it's own dial on the RX10, and up to 12 options... kid, meet candy shop...

My best suggestion is to notice what functions you use often, and assign them to the fastest button combo that is memorable to you. I've found that the RX and HX series Sony cams have similar button layouts, and after a while you find you've developed reflex memory for most common functions - at that point you're no longer thinking about shooting, it just becomes fluid, and even more "fun" because the camera no longer is getting in the way, it becomes a natural extension of your "creative animal"! I know this sounds "strange", but hopefully it will be useful to you!

Enjoy shooting, look forward to your experiences, even as I wait to get hands on one myself, shooting with my none too shabby RX100M2!

Noa Put · December 9th, 2013, 02:12 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Jim Giberti

Mine arrives tomorrow and I'll be shooting it all week beside the new BMPCC.

That would be interesting eventhough they are 2 completely different camera's in functionality and output.

John McCully · December 9th, 2013, 02:24 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

That would be interesting eventhough they are 2 completely different camera's in functionality and output.

Chalk and cheese perhaps, though which is which? My RX10 arrives later this week and I have had several weeks already to come to gripes (that’s not a typo) with the BMPCC and I’m not complaining about the picture.

You just know I shall have some fun comparing these machines.

Jim Giberti · December 9th, 2013, 02:36 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Noa Put

That would be interesting eventhough they are 2 completely different camera's in functionality and output.

Of course they are.
I happened to get both at the same time for upcoming work - thought they could make complimentary small systems.
It's not comparison testing, its working with them to get to know them and integrate them into our kits.
The RXi0 you can just pick up and shoot, both of the BMCs take a good deal of finessing, but deliver a superlative image for film and TV work.

December 7th, 2013, 05:18 PM	#166
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera @Ron - There's definitely no "free lunch" - up your data rate, it'll cost ya! My main observation was that this PARTICULAR sensor/processor combo supposedly is taking the data off the chip at full rez and dealing with it, albeit crunching it down to 28Mbps 1080p (or whatever the user chooses). Not sure how much difference there is between crunching it down and outputting a 4k "stream"... somehow it seems like it shouldn't be that bad? But going from indications on the Z100 and AX1, memory is a SERIOUS bottleneck/expense/format issue. I know the NEX APS-C sensors are notorious due to tiny body size, but I've not run into issues with the larger body Alphas, and the RX100/M2 seem to be fine heat wise... it's not a guaranteed headache, just a common one. There are anecdotal reports that the type of memory used can affect the heat problems too, so again, there may be something about trying to stuff larger data streams into certain memory cards... Ahh, the joys of the bleeding edge...

December 8th, 2013, 09:25 AM	#168
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera For Dave: The data rate for 4K on the FDR-AX1 is max 150Mbps or about 19MBps well within the data rate for SD class 10 cards. I can certainly read and write to my Patriot class 10 EP cards at this rate. Spec is 35MBps write 50MBps read The 600Mbps for the PXW-Z100 is 4 times this so more than a SD card can do at the moment until the new series is available. Readout from the sensor and scale in a fixed ratio is likely an easy hardware task but encoding in longGOP at an acceptably low data rate is not easy and requires a lot of compute power. As I think I mentioned in an earlier post it takes my i7 3770 with 16G RAM a long time to encode XAVCS, far from realtime. As an example in Vegas 12 with a FDR-AX1 60P 11 sec clip on the timeline and just render back to the same thing XAVC-S with no effects at all my PC took 97 secs at Turbo boost running at 4Mhz. It took 19 secs to scale the same clip to 1920x1080 AVCHD 60P. So it took 5 times longer to do the encode to XAVC-S format. So the general CPU can not quiet do realtime scale but should be easy hardware task. Bill: I am aware of the sensor layout for the NX5U. The bigger sensor allow better signal to noise ratios and are about 2 times the size of the actual 1920x1080 pixels and the interpolated pixels will take the values from 4 surrounding sensors to arrive at a value. With data array smoothing this interpolation should be reasonable. Since almost all camcorders process the sensor output to smooth date, correct for fault sensors etc etc whether the data comes from a 1:1 sensor pixel arrangement or an interpolated/corrected array is in my mind no difference as long as the apparent pixel size is the same. In the case of the NX5U this is the case. The NX5U sensor issue is that they are old design sensors !!!! My comparisons are to setting the FDR-AX1 to 1920x1080 and comparing. This will be an internal scale and I have not done a lot of comparisons but the few I have done do not see a startling difference. Very much like my NX30 or CX700 sort of image and very close to my HX30V still camera which I am presuming has the same sensor !!! I expected to see an obvious improvement since it would be recording at 50Mbps XAVC-S not 24Mbps etc. The downscaled image in Edius using Lanczos 3 though is lovely but as you say needs light !!! It is between 1 and 2 stops slower than the others close to the HX30V though !!!! . It took me a year to get my NX5U set up with picture profiles etc so comparing to a default set up for the FDR-AX1 may not be fair. A downside to the FDR-AX1 is that although there is a paint function there is only one and no on off setting on a button !!! A backward step as others on the camcorder. Hopefully a future firmware update will improve the camcorder. The FDR-AX1 with the RX10 sensor would be nice though !!! Ron Evans

December 8th, 2013, 06:44 PM	#169
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Just to get this thread back on track; has any owner of this camera been shooting with it yet? Normally I plan to go to the city Bruges this week to shoot some footage, just to get some hands on experience as I plan to use the camera at a wedding this Saturday. I have been going through the menu just now and assigning functions to the buttons on the camera for quick access, this camera has some powerful functionality. I assigned the iso settings to the scroll wheel so while I"m shooting I can scroll the wheel and the iso values pop up and go up or down depending what direction you turn the wheel so that's an instant change while you turn the wheel, that was what I missed most on my nex-ea50, this makes changing Iso during run and gun a breeze. I also assigned the nd filter to a button which requires pushing one button to bring up the nd selection and then use the scroll wheel to go up/down and press enter to activate, takes 2 secs to activate the nd filter, awesome. :) I also have the audio levels assigned to a button, just press it and it pops up and use the scroll wheel to in- or decrease the volume. Then I also have one button which brings up 12 other functions in a small menu I can scroll through to change any other value quickly, I can also change from manual to auto focus with teh press of a button and the peaking does a very good job, Sony has really given this some good thought. One thing I don't like is the speed of the zoom, don't know why but in standy mode the zoom speed is slow but ok to use, only in record mode it becomes much slower, up to the point that it's too slow for real life use. must be a setting I hope. The very few test shots I made are bloody sharp and I"m able to get sufficient shallow dof, what I had hoped for, setting exposure with the zebra's is real easy and the iris ring is buttery smooth, I did notice that burned highlights issue I have seen in other videos but I find it's mainly a matter of setting your exposure right manually and if necessary bring the highlights back to 100 (even with what seemed to have a correct exposure the highlights where at 110 ire.)

December 8th, 2013, 06:54 PM	#171
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera I was expecting some written experience :) I've seen the footage so far, but was more asking how users are experiencing the camera so far.

December 8th, 2013, 07:00 PM	#172
Darren Levine Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NJ/NYC Posts: 563	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Comon Noa, catchup on the thread before asking, i posted this just the last page, and there's a lot of write-ups to be googled Sony RX10: A truly first of it's kind bridge camera with a versatile lens and tons of good details. Review first page of google... Photography blog http://www.photographyblog.com/revie...c_rx10_review/ Imaging resource http://www.imaging-resource.com/news...ngeable-lenses Pocket Lint http://www.pocket-lint.com/review/12...ot-rx10-review ephotozine http://www.ephotozine.com/article/so...0-review-23331 __________________ C100 - GH4 - NYC Shooter www.DarrenLevine.com

December 8th, 2013, 07:03 PM	#173
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera I have seen those but I am still asking for user experiences in general, is that ok for you? I thought this was a forum...

December 8th, 2013, 07:09 PM	#174
Darren Levine Major Player Join Date: Apr 2010 Location: NJ/NYC Posts: 563	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera absolutely, but that's not what you wrote and what i responded to. perhaps you meant it another way __________________ C100 - GH4 - NYC Shooter www.DarrenLevine.com

December 8th, 2013, 07:15 PM	#175
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera I think it's clear by now what I"m asking, no need to continue to make a point as it doesn't add anything constructive to this discussion.

December 9th, 2013, 12:37 AM	#177
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Glad to hear you're getting on with yours Noa - I am holding off as other holiday expenses take precedence! Even though I don't have one in hand, experience with the RX100/M2 (and to some extent the HX100-300 series) gives me a fair estimation of how the camera will "feel", and I look forward to getting at least one - I am selling a few other things that it will replace, maybe if enough of them go to good new homes, I'll bag one. I have a serious natural aversion to paying "retail", but the RX10 is dangerously close to overcoming that... and Santa has been notified, extensively! I also know there will be some of these come up lightly used when "average users" discover this camera is WAAAAAAY over their heads, and they can't figure out how to use it - it always happens! The reports of the slow zoom seem to be a "feature", hopefully something firmware can address. I think what you're wondering about is what "user customized menus" are people finding useful? That is a good discussion question, as the camera has a lot of room to customize. ISO, WB, DRO, and EV shift were my main choices on the RX100/M2 (IIRC up to six selections pulled up by the Fn button) - EV shift has it's own dial on the RX10, and up to 12 options... kid, meet candy shop... My best suggestion is to notice what functions you use often, and assign them to the fastest button combo that is memorable to you. I've found that the RX and HX series Sony cams have similar button layouts, and after a while you find you've developed reflex memory for most common functions - at that point you're no longer thinking about shooting, it just becomes fluid, and even more "fun" because the camera no longer is getting in the way, it becomes a natural extension of your "creative animal"! I know this sounds "strange", but hopefully it will be useful to you! Enjoy shooting, look forward to your experiences, even as I wait to get hands on one myself, shooting with my none too shabby RX100M2!