Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera

Jim Giberti · November 29th, 2013, 12:13 PM

It's no different than there being the potential for strong moire with the BMPCC.
It doesn't change the fact that it can deliver an image as good as nearly any you'd want for a quality TV spot.
It is a limitation in certain, very real circumstances (like AVCHD can cause low resolution in areas of motion in certain circumstances.)
But of course it can be used for pro work.

Bill Bruner · November 30th, 2013, 07:56 AM

Anyone who has a problem with the RX10 at 28mbps AVCHD can simply connect the camera to a $695 Ninja 2, and have a ProRes camera that will run with the big dogs for less than $2000:

Recording to ProRes, the image quality and gradeability seem to me to be significantly improved:

These two videos (along with Andrew Reid's "Run and Gun" and Dan Carter's "Arizona Biltmore Resort") have put this camera back on my radar screen.

Glen Vandermolen · November 30th, 2013, 09:13 AM

Imagine having this sensor and zoom lens in a true camcorder body, with ND filters, XLR inputs, SDI, timecode in/out and recording to XAVC.
That would be one heck of a run and gun camera, with shallow depth of field better than S16.

Bill Bruner · November 30th, 2013, 12:22 PM

Then it would be the FS700 :)

Simon Denny · November 30th, 2013, 01:44 PM

The quality in that video from Christopher above looks fantastic from the RX10.

Simon Denny · November 30th, 2013, 02:06 PM

It would be great to see some more samples with some clips shot to the internal of the RX10 and to a Ninja or something similar. I know that there is a difference but....... oh hang on I could always hire a Ninja for a day.

Philip Lipetz · November 30th, 2013, 02:21 PM

^
And to grade these clips in a neutral manner, not super saturated to hide subtle variations as too many of the report samples are, both n grading and inthe sue of the vivid setting.

Jim Giberti · December 1st, 2013, 05:19 PM

We're in the earliest of stages of seeing what this camera might do.
Everyone's busy on the holiday, with a few grabbing shots as they try out settings.

What I'm seeing so far is pretty much the camera I was hoping for. An outdoor all-in-one system that will look really good under 800 ISO and maybe great under 400 where I shoot 95% of everything we produce.

I'd be using this with a semi-permanent variable ND to get the most out of that Zeiss glass and to keep it in the proper range.
And who knows, with a ninja and NR off (always) it might look great at higher ISOs with a little good post NR.

Jim Giberti · December 2nd, 2013, 12:26 AM

Of course there's no ideal anything, and if there were an ideal camera, you certainly wouldn't be paying $1300 for it. But the RX10 was certainly developed to check off virtually every box that a lot of shooters/producers have been asking for for several years.
Sony was actually paying attention.
In this case, it's not about being incredible, it's a camera that seems to be good enough at everything a DSLR could/should be by now - and they actually did it.
It seems Sony has, in a way, done what Canon did about 5 years ago with the 5DII - except Sony did it intentionally.

Dave Blackhurst · December 2nd, 2013, 06:48 AM

This is a sort of "90% camera", plus or minus. IOW, it's a camera that should cover MANY possible shooting situations well enough to satisfy a reasonably particular "enthusiast" buyer, and tick many boxes for the pro that is looking for a "serious" camera for casual and some pro use. All in a fairly compact package.

Some of the observations in those links are helpful to understand the market dynamics - MOST of the images/video being shot and shared today... are probably from CELL PHONES... it's the camera that is in everyone's pocket (the camera that is "best" is the one you have with you when the moment strikes...). Arguably, the "quality" is marginal to outright BAD, from a "serious" photographic standpoint, but it's the CONTENT that matters, so they sort of deal with it... that's probably "enough"... and unless the consumer wants to spend quite a bit, they probably won't be complaining enough to justify buying a "real" camera. And if they DO, they probably won't carry the extra device(s) most of the time!

And of course each new generation of cell phones will have a better "tiny" sensor module, with a tiny lens, but it WILL take better and more acceptable pictures/video - it's inevitable, and the "consumer" point and shoot and basic camcorder is likely already "dead", it just hasn't faded out of the market... EVEN IF the average P&S and low end video cam likely outperforms the cell phone, people just aren't going to carry 2-3 electronic "toys".

The short of it is that "consumers", who are enamored of tablets and cell phones are "OK" with the limited image quality they provide... leaving a rather more limited market for "enthusiasts" and "pros". There's a big gap between those who know what an "f-stop" is and those who probably think it means something entirely different...

Manufacturers have to step up their game to produce something worth spending money on In a tight economy...

The "pro" or enthusiast image/content creator WILL spend more for a "serious" camera, but also probably appreciates not having to lug around a huge bag of expensive gear everywhere (and likely already HAS most of that gear). Sony "gets" this - the RX100 found an entirely new market - a small camera that had superior image capture capability... it beats a cell phone or P&S, and has full manual video, and they sold a lot of 'em...

The RX10 represents another "new market" - it's a very capable still camera, and they realized that it could ALSO be a very capable video camera. Sure, it's not a traditional video camera form factor, but if you've shot with an SLR or any of Sony's earlier bridge models, you realize it's pretty easy to shoot with. I've said already that it's "expensive" as a stills camera, but not so much as a video camera... think about it for a minute, and you'll realize if it were a "Handycam", it'd be several hundred dollars MORE than the $1300 price. And the stills from a Handycam don't cut it, from my experience. It may indeed prove quite interesting to see what if anything Sony's video division does with this sensor/processor combo...

I don't know if the RX10 will be the "ideal" camera, but it will cover so many bases that it will likely be the "hammer" that I grab when I need a little more than the RX100M2 can do and I don't mind a little bigger camera. The two together will be nifty multicam setup in a small package.

Noa Put · December 3rd, 2013, 09:19 AM

I needed a replacement camera for my nex-ea50 that I sold a few days ago so I went ahead and ordered the rx10 yesterday and did some very quick shots just now, I have too much editng work to spend enough time with the camera at this moment but I"m very impressed what this little powerhouse offers, what I have seen so far is a usable 6400iso and a very effective stabilisation, even at full tele. Also the viewfinder is good so I don't need to add another loupe for the lcd screen. I have one last wedding this year (on 14 Dec) and this thing will be with me all day, then I can say and probably show some more real life footage, the venue I will be shooting in has some challenging lightconditions.

Glen Vandermolen · December 4th, 2013, 06:41 AM

For those who've used this camera, has there been any issues with overheating in video mode?

Philip Lipetz · December 4th, 2013, 07:53 AM

The manual states that if you restart immediately after the 29 minutes cut off the camera immediately upon warning because it might shut down due to overheating. I have never explored this.

Noa Put · December 4th, 2013, 11:43 AM

There was a document included in the package stating that if the camera or card got hot during recording it was normal behavior, not sure how that will be in real life use.

Dave Blackhurst · December 4th, 2013, 10:43 PM

Definitely would like to see some heat/time tests, since this was a major issue with the NEX and early Alpha APS-C cameras. I would expect SOME thermal gain from the sensor and processor, especially since they supposedly are reading the entire sensor and at 5K...

REALLY hope they got the thermal issues under control in this one - I suppose I probably should try toasting the RX100M2 with some long clip video recording... haven't noticed any problems or any reports, but haven't "stress tested" either.

I've wondered why they didn't shoehorn 4K into this little beastie - maybe it would have melted the memory sticks! From the specs, MOST of the capability is there for 4K output, but as our own Ron Evans has reported, the 4K cameras run pretty hot, and require an internal fan... all those little 1's and 0's running around must create a heckuva lot of friction!

Anyone in the southern hemisphere got hands on an RX10 - it's cold enough to snow here... even if I had one, it'd probably not get very warm at the moment!

November 29th, 2013, 12:13 PM	#136
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera It's no different than there being the potential for strong moire with the BMPCC. It doesn't change the fact that it can deliver an image as good as nearly any you'd want for a quality TV spot. It is a limitation in certain, very real circumstances (like AVCHD can cause low resolution in areas of motion in certain circumstances.) But of course it can be used for pro work.

November 30th, 2013, 07:56 AM	#137
Bill Bruner Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Sunny California Posts: 513	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Anyone who has a problem with the RX10 at 28mbps AVCHD can simply connect the camera to a $695 Ninja 2, and have a ProRes camera that will run with the big dogs for less than $2000: Atomos Ninja and Sony RX10 Setup Guide on Vimeo Recording to ProRes, the image quality and gradeability seem to me to be significantly improved: Sony RX10 recorded to Ninja2 on Vimeo These two videos (along with Andrew Reid's "Run and Gun" and Dan Carter's "Arizona Biltmore Resort") have put this camera back on my radar screen.

November 30th, 2013, 09:13 AM	#138
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Imagine having this sensor and zoom lens in a true camcorder body, with ND filters, XLR inputs, SDI, timecode in/out and recording to XAVC. That would be one heck of a run and gun camera, with shallow depth of field better than S16.

November 30th, 2013, 12:22 PM	#139
Bill Bruner Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Sunny California Posts: 513	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Then it would be the FS700 :)

November 30th, 2013, 01:44 PM	#140
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera The quality in that video from Christopher above looks fantastic from the RX10.

November 30th, 2013, 02:06 PM	#141
Simon Denny Trustee Join Date: Jul 2007 Location: Australia Posts: 1,409	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera It would be great to see some more samples with some clips shot to the internal of the RX10 and to a Ninja or something similar. I know that there is a difference but....... oh hang on I could always hire a Ninja for a day.

November 30th, 2013, 02:21 PM	#142
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera ^ And to grade these clips in a neutral manner, not super saturated to hide subtle variations as too many of the report samples are, both n grading and inthe sue of the vivid setting.

December 1st, 2013, 05:19 PM	#143
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera We're in the earliest of stages of seeing what this camera might do. Everyone's busy on the holiday, with a few grabbing shots as they try out settings. What I'm seeing so far is pretty much the camera I was hoping for. An outdoor all-in-one system that will look really good under 800 ISO and maybe great under 400 where I shoot 95% of everything we produce. I'd be using this with a semi-permanent variable ND to get the most out of that Zeiss glass and to keep it in the proper range. And who knows, with a ninja and NR off (always) it might look great at higher ISOs with a little good post NR.

December 2nd, 2013, 12:26 AM	#144
Jim Giberti Major Player Join Date: Aug 2002 Location: Bethel, VT Posts: 824	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Of course there's no ideal anything, and if there were an ideal camera, you certainly wouldn't be paying $1300 for it. But the RX10 was certainly developed to check off virtually every box that a lot of shooters/producers have been asking for for several years. Sony was actually paying attention. In this case, it's not about being incredible, it's a camera that seems to be good enough at everything a DSLR could/should be by now - and they actually did it. It seems Sony has, in a way, done what Canon did about 5 years ago with the 5DII - except Sony did it intentionally.

December 2nd, 2013, 06:48 AM	#145
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera This is a sort of "90% camera", plus or minus. IOW, it's a camera that should cover MANY possible shooting situations well enough to satisfy a reasonably particular "enthusiast" buyer, and tick many boxes for the pro that is looking for a "serious" camera for casual and some pro use. All in a fairly compact package. Some of the observations in those links are helpful to understand the market dynamics - MOST of the images/video being shot and shared today... are probably from CELL PHONES... it's the camera that is in everyone's pocket (the camera that is "best" is the one you have with you when the moment strikes...). Arguably, the "quality" is marginal to outright BAD, from a "serious" photographic standpoint, but it's the CONTENT that matters, so they sort of deal with it... that's probably "enough"... and unless the consumer wants to spend quite a bit, they probably won't be complaining enough to justify buying a "real" camera. And if they DO, they probably won't carry the extra device(s) most of the time! And of course each new generation of cell phones will have a better "tiny" sensor module, with a tiny lens, but it WILL take better and more acceptable pictures/video - it's inevitable, and the "consumer" point and shoot and basic camcorder is likely already "dead", it just hasn't faded out of the market... EVEN IF the average P&S and low end video cam likely outperforms the cell phone, people just aren't going to carry 2-3 electronic "toys". The short of it is that "consumers", who are enamored of tablets and cell phones are "OK" with the limited image quality they provide... leaving a rather more limited market for "enthusiasts" and "pros". There's a big gap between those who know what an "f-stop" is and those who probably think it means something entirely different... Manufacturers have to step up their game to produce something worth spending money on In a tight economy... The "pro" or enthusiast image/content creator WILL spend more for a "serious" camera, but also probably appreciates not having to lug around a huge bag of expensive gear everywhere (and likely already HAS most of that gear). Sony "gets" this - the RX100 found an entirely new market - a small camera that had superior image capture capability... it beats a cell phone or P&S, and has full manual video, and they sold a lot of 'em... The RX10 represents another "new market" - it's a very capable still camera, and they realized that it could ALSO be a very capable video camera. Sure, it's not a traditional video camera form factor, but if you've shot with an SLR or any of Sony's earlier bridge models, you realize it's pretty easy to shoot with. I've said already that it's "expensive" as a stills camera, but not so much as a video camera... think about it for a minute, and you'll realize if it were a "Handycam", it'd be several hundred dollars MORE than the $1300 price. And the stills from a Handycam don't cut it, from my experience. It may indeed prove quite interesting to see what if anything Sony's video division does with this sensor/processor combo... I don't know if the RX10 will be the "ideal" camera, but it will cover so many bases that it will likely be the "hammer" that I grab when I need a little more than the RX100M2 can do and I don't mind a little bigger camera. The two together will be nifty multicam setup in a small package.

December 3rd, 2013, 09:19 AM	#146
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera I needed a replacement camera for my nex-ea50 that I sold a few days ago so I went ahead and ordered the rx10 yesterday and did some very quick shots just now, I have too much editng work to spend enough time with the camera at this moment but I"m very impressed what this little powerhouse offers, what I have seen so far is a usable 6400iso and a very effective stabilisation, even at full tele. Also the viewfinder is good so I don't need to add another loupe for the lcd screen. I have one last wedding this year (on 14 Dec) and this thing will be with me all day, then I can say and probably show some more real life footage, the venue I will be shooting in has some challenging lightconditions.

December 4th, 2013, 06:41 AM	#147
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera For those who've used this camera, has there been any issues with overheating in video mode?

December 4th, 2013, 07:53 AM	#148
Philip Lipetz Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Columbus, Ohio Posts: 273	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera The manual states that if you restart immediately after the 29 minutes cut off the camera immediately upon warning because it might shut down due to overheating. I have never explored this. Last edited by Philip Lipetz; December 4th, 2013 at 11:53 AM.

December 4th, 2013, 11:43 AM	#149
Noa Put Inner Circle Join Date: Jun 2007 Location: Belgium Posts: 9,510	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera There was a document included in the package stating that if the camera or card got hot during recording it was normal behavior, not sure how that will be in real life use.

December 4th, 2013, 10:43 PM	#150
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Sony RX10 point-and-shoot camera Definitely would like to see some heat/time tests, since this was a major issue with the NEX and early Alpha APS-C cameras. I would expect SOME thermal gain from the sensor and processor, especially since they supposedly are reading the entire sensor and at 5K... REALLY hope they got the thermal issues under control in this one - I suppose I probably should try toasting the RX100M2 with some long clip video recording... haven't noticed any problems or any reports, but haven't "stress tested" either. I've wondered why they didn't shoehorn 4K into this little beastie - maybe it would have melted the memory sticks! From the specs, MOST of the capability is there for 4K output, but as our own Ron Evans has reported, the 4K cameras run pretty hot, and require an internal fan... all those little 1's and 0's running around must create a heckuva lot of friction! Anyone in the southern hemisphere got hands on an RX10 - it's cold enough to snow here... even if I had one, it'd probably not get very warm at the moment!