Not happy with FS700 ergonomics

[Chris Medico]

Originally Posted by Jon Springer

Well, the lens / accessory argument is a bit of a straw man, since everyone has to buy a set of usable lenses, batteries, etc. no matter what camera they buy. I was referring to a body and viewfinder for under 20K. And at the risk of just pitting one speculation against the other, I would offer the example of what Panasonic was able to do with the HPX500…i.e. engineer an inexpensive ENG body around an existing sensor and memory technology for under 12K (for the body) and another 2K (for a decent SD viewfinder).

I don’t think it’s such a stretch to suggest that a manufacturer like Sony could build a decent ENG body around their existing Exmor sensor to retail for around 15K, with another 5K for a good HD EVF. Plus, with an ENG form factor as a starting point, you are automatically saving thousands on the economic juggernaut of overpriced 3rd party accessories that are needed just to get these palmcorders, still cameras and plastic bricks to the point of being usable in a real-world ENG scenario.




Why they have embraced such a difficult form factor is a question worth analyzing, I think. And it's inevitable that some will come to realize the advantages of a better ergonomic. The very fact that Fujinon is making a lens like the Cabrio is evidence that a large sensor ENG configuration is part of that future...with much cheaper versions becoming available on the horizon I bet.

Nearly all the shooters I know lament the ergonomic limitations of their 5D’s, FS100’s and the like. But we have no choice, because producers are demanding the look of these cameras more and more, and then the job of the DP becomes twice as difficult because of the non-professional form factor. It doesn’t have to be that way…or does it?




How so? I don’t think the HPX500 eroded Panasonic’s higher end offerings at all. In fact, I think that camera actually became a stepping stone to the higher end P2 gear for many shooters.

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I had a good talk with someone inside Sony today and based on that conversation the probability of a large imager ENG style camera below $25k (body only) from Sony is near zero. They acknowledged the request has been heard but responded that a S35 imager ENG camera wasn't practical. Especially under $20-25k.

I don't think my case is a straw mans argument. I am not misrepresenting the costs for what it will take to have a usable product at all. If that product is brought to market it will not be in the prosumer price range.

You must evaluate the total cost of ownership. To disregard that info is naive. Total cost must include everything needed to make a functioning system and not just the camera body. Since a S35 camera will not be able to use existing ENG lenses without expensive adapters or you have to purchase the right PL lens for the job you can't ignore those costs.

It is possible to make a PL zoom lens for less than $40k. The idea that a S35 coverage ENG style zoom lens matching the quality/performance of a good 2/3" lens will be similar in price is unreasonable. I would not expect to find anything for less than $20-30k any time soon. Right now you can count on one hand how many options you have irregardless of price and you won't even need all your fingers to do it. At this time there is nothing applying downward pressure on price other than wishful thinking.

ENG is not a commodity market. If it were I would have a more positive opinion on the possibility of a product in sub $20k price range. That isn't the reality of it so I don't see it happening.

[Alister Chapman]

I've seen the Tilta Frank. It's about the best I've seen but it mounts the camera very high above the shoulder pad. The shoulder mount is OK, but I don't need or want a cage surrounding the camera, I just want a simple low profile shoulder mount with 15mm rods out the front and back and a bracket for an EVF.

[Frank Glencairn]

The cage is optional Alister, you can only get the baseplate with the build in shoulder mount and rod mounts. And yeah, it's not exactly "low profile" - but you have to maintain a certain space between lens and rods, so there is not THAT much room for options anyway.

[Alister Chapman]

I know the shoulder mount is available on it's own, but it's ridiculously over engineered and I didn't find the camera particularly stable on it due to the sliding camera mounting plate and small mounting surface area. Not sure who designs half this stuff but it doesn't appear to be camera operators. LW15 to optical axis is only 85mm. The FS700 is 55mm from the lens axis to the base, so the shoulder mount only needs to be 45mm tall.

[Svein Rune Skilnand]

Where is it possible to buy the Tilta? Looks interesting to me. To be used with an FS100 both handheld and tripod.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

You must evaluate the total cost of ownership. To disregard that info is naive. Total cost must include everything needed to make a functioning system and not just the camera body.

Fully agreed.

Since a S35 camera will not be able to use existing ENG lenses without expensive adapters or you have to purchase the right PL lens for the job you can't ignore those costs.

I think you may be misunderstanding what is being asked for. It's not to make an s35 camera behave like an ENG camera in terms of long reach servo lenses etc, but just to make it more ergonomic to hand hold.

I gave the example of a PMW320 as compared to a EX1. Fundamentally very similar in terms of the technology, very different for ergonomics. That's what being asked for here. In principle using the same lens as an owner would get for a FS700. Yes, "a S35 coverage ENG style zoom lens matching the quality/performance of a good 2/3" lens" would be nice, but yes, it would be expensive.

Following on from your point about total ownership, then whilst such a body may be dearer than an FS700, it would save the cost of extra mountings - the total cost then may not be much higher.

[Chris Medico]

I'm not thrilled with the ergonomics of the FS line of cameras myself. Once they get this small there is limited real estate to put all the buttons. I'm not exactly thrilled with the ergo of my F3 either but in my opinion it is better than the FS cameras.

What form factor/design would work better (I'm asking seriously and not to be adversarial). How would you design it if you were given a clean slate to work from?

[Svein Rune Skilnand]

My dreamcamera would actually be an FS700 in an EX1R housing. Reliable SxS media, fantastic handgrip, lightweight and I love the placement of the LCD screen. For documentary style shooting anyway.

If the EX1 had the same DOF, I probably would`nt look any further.

[Mike Marriage]

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

What form factor/design would work better (I'm asking seriously and not to be adversarial). How would you design it if you were given a clean slate to work from?

The JVC GY-HM700 is, in my opinion, the best camera available in regards ergonomics. It is small and light. It is effortless on the shoulder, on the hip, on a tripod or other grip equipment.

I would prefer a better EVF and monitor and would be happy to pay extra for them. A few additional mounting points would also be good to add monitors, rods, handgrips etc..

It's not perfect, but for that price bracket, I think it does exceptionally well.

[Jon Springer]

Originally Posted by Chris Medico

I had a good talk with someone inside Sony today and based on that conversation the probability of a large imager ENG style camera below $25k (body only) from Sony is near zero. They acknowledged the request has been heard but responded that a S35 imager ENG camera wasn't practical. Especially under $20-25k.

Chris, I think you're misunderstanding the concept...sorry, it's probably my fault. I am not talking about engineering a fully functional ENG camera with an S35 sensor; I'm talking about engineering an S35 camera body with an ENG form factor. It may be the way I'm using the word ENG that is causing the confusion here...so I will just say shoulder-mounted form factor instead.

This would simply mean putting large sensor technology into a shoulder mounted body (as opposed to a palmcorder/plastic brick) body, all other things being equal. Making the body shoulder-mounted from the get-go would save camera buyers a fortune on the 3rd party accessories that are designed to "make" these cameras shoulder-mounted.

I really don't see how this would be impractical for the camera manufacturers. I do see how the Zacuto's and Red Rock's of this world wouldn't be too happy about it, though. They are making a fortune offering cumbersome, expensive and sometimes absurd camera rigs because of the abysmal ergonomics of these cameras.



Shooting is hard enough without having to deal with this kind of nonsense.

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[Jon Springer]

Originally Posted by Alister Chapman

I know the shoulder mount is available on it's own, but it's ridiculously over engineered and I didn't find the camera particularly stable on it due to the sliding camera mounting plate and small mounting surface area. Not sure who designs half this stuff but it doesn't appear to be camera operators. LW15 to optical axis is only 85mm. The FS700 is 55mm from the lens axis to the base, so the shoulder mount only needs to be 45mm tall.

This one (link below) actually looks like a fairly no-nonsense, straightforward design. They claim is gives your C300 the balance of an Arri SR3. It would be interesting to see the FS700 mounted on there...

CINOFLEX type-C300

[Jon Springer]

Originally Posted by Mike Marriage

The JVC GY-HM700 is, in my opinion, the best camera available in regards ergonomics. It is small and light. It is effortless on the shoulder, on the hip, on a tripod or other grip equipment.

Exactly. An HM700 body with an S35 sensor. Compact, lightweight, balances well on and off the tripod. JVC should go for it.

[Bill Bruner]

Mike and Jon - exactly - a large sensor and interchangeable lenses in a "shoulder-mounted form factor" is all I want. Not a full-up ENG camera.

Bill

[Alister Chapman]

But that's not a shoulder mount Jon. It's just a flat slab with a few connectors and a battery plate.Like I said, really not sure who comes up with some of this stuff but it doesn't appear to be end users or real shooters.

[Jon Springer]

But that's not a shoulder mount Jon. It's just a flat slab with a few connectors and a battery plate.

Actually, yes it is. Here's a better image...it comes with a shoulder pad and grips...

http://www.dslrnewsshooter.com/wp-co...anoflex001.jpg



...and guess what? It only costs 5K!

Canoflex Type C300 Cinema Base For The Canon C300 Camera. Quick Take Video. Wide Open Camera - YouTube

Like I said, really not sure who comes up with some of this stuff but it doesn't appear to be end users or real shooters.

I totally agree. But it is the camera buyers who are ultimately creating this huge demand for sub-par ergonomics in cameras and in 3rd party camera solutions.

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