NEX-FS700 and NEX-F3 -- next week?

[Steve Mullen]

"Sony may introduce a new NEX-FS700 camcorder. The 700 does 4K via 3G HD-SDI to an external recorder. It has 3 internal ND filters and 960fps slow motion. It will be released in June for $9000.

Don’t know yet if the NEX-F3 camcorder will be announced the same day.

[Werner Graf]

The camera will be available in June no Price yet her some infos sticked togehter from various sites...

Sony NEX-FS700 mit 4K S35 CMOS und 3G SDI Out

In the basic version, but first spent only 2K via SDI port.
If the 3G SDI Out of the Sony FS700, a 10 -bit 4:2:2 Signal is present, which is output progressively, this could be a real killer argument against the interlaced 8Bit 4:2:2 SDI out to be the Canon C300. Internally, the Sony should NEX-FS700 according AVCHD only 8 bits 4:2:0 record - this would be the Canon EOS C300 with its internal 8 -bit 4:2:2 Recording in the back edge.


Sony : NEX-FS700E (NEXFS700E) : Product Overview : Other
Sony : NEX-FS700E (NEXFS700E) : Features : Other

Preliminary Information
This is preliminary information. All features and specifications are subject to change without notice.

MemoryStick or SDXC Cards or on external HXR-FMU128 recorder

4K-ready
The first 4K-ready Super35mm camcorder in its class – providing an assured upgrade path to 4K acquisition and delivery - with full HD 1080p for today.The camcorder will also have the capability to produce 4K RAW 3G-SDI output via a future upgrade.

Super slow motion at 10x at full HD or 40x at lower resolutions
Incredible super slow motion capability of up to 10x slow motion at full HD resolution or up to 40x slow motion at a reduced resolution, giving you creative options that were once only available with specialist high-end equipment.

E-mount interchangeable lenses offer a wide choice of lenses
The E-mount interchangeable lens system utilises an extremely short flange back distance allowing you to use a huge array of lenses via a range of adaptors giving you almost unlimited creative options.

Additional A-mount lenses available
The Sony LA-EA2 A-mount lens adaptor allows you to use the wide range of high quality alpha lenses and take advantage of the auto focus function for quicker, more convenient operation.

Built-in HD filters HALLELUJA!!
Internal ND filters (clear, 1/4, 1/16 and 1/64)
The NEX-FS700E features built-in, ultra-thin ND filters, offering exceptional shallow depth-of-field on highlights. It also means less accessories to manage as no external ND filters are required.

3G-SDI interface and HDMI
A 3G-SDI output enables easy integration with highest quality recording formats.

Exceptional ergonomics
The NEX-FS700E has a refined ergonomic design with a robust detachable handle and grip.

Switchable 50 Hz and 60 Hz shooting
The NEX-FS700E is switchable between 50 Hz and 60Hz to allow 24p shooting in PAL areas and no PAL/NTSC limitations.

The new improved Grip has a Zoom ring! e-Mount Servo Zoomes to come!!
Selectable magnification and positioning of expanded focus

Expanded focus improvement allowing 4x and 8x magnification and a moveable area of expansion for easy focusing with shallow depth of field.

Camera profile settings storage on memory card
Up to 99 camera profile settings can be stored, allowing rapid adaptation to multiple shooting environments without time wasted adjusting parameters. Settings are also easily shared in multi-camera productions.

[Steve Mullen]

Supposedly $9000.

"4K-ready
The first 4K-ready Super35mm camcorder in its class – providing an assured upgrade path to 4K acquisition and delivery -- with full HD 1080p for today. The camcorder will also have the capability to produce 4K RAW 3G-SDI output via a future upgrade."

So, the chip is ready for 4K, but you cannot record it until "firmware" arrives to output the 4K as RAW via a single 3G HD-SDI port already on the camera.

a) I wonder if it has S-log with RAW? Given it's 10bits, I expect yes.

b) I assume Sony SRMaster deck can record, but will other cheaper units work with 4K?

c) Will it have a 2X the Green photosites like the F65? I doubt it.

Now is this NEX-F3? It seems like it might be.

PS: For a year I've been stuck on the idea the F3 and FS100 chip that Sony won't fully describe can capture 4K2K. (I think it uses clusters of photocites to capture HD.) Wouldn't it be interesting -- now that Sony has made the S-log/RAW firmware free, if they announce that later this year firmware will provide 4K capture for both the F3 and FS-700. The FS100 has no BNC connector :( The inclusion of ND filtering and the upgradeabilty would make me cry were I an owner of a new FS100. Especially if Sony makes the FS700 firmware free like with the F3.


Given JVC's $5000 4K2K camcorder, I would not be surprised if Sony introduces a new VG that shoots 4K. But still crippled to keep the pressure off of more expensive Sony AND to keep avoid hurting JVC too much. (These two hunt Pana like a pair of wolfes. So what will Pana announce?) I noticed the new JVC now says AVCHD on the camera -- yet that was not in the announcement. Could this be 36Mbps AVCHD?

[Monday Isa]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

...I noticed the new JVC now says AVCHD on the camera -- yet that was not in the announcement. Could this be 36Mbps AVCHD?

Steve where did you see that?

[Werner Graf]

slashCAM Forum :: Thema - Sony NEX-FS700 mit 4K S35 CMOS und 3G SDI Out
This guy tested it allready

Glencairn Frank wrote:
I could play for a few days with the baby.

What can I say, I'm starting to save for ever. ;-)
The next day I write a review

best, Frank

Yes, 4:2:2 would be nice, but honestly I was really surprised at the inclusion in the quality of the AVCHD FS700.
I've recorded simultaneously with NEM samurai 4:2:2 SDI and if you are not 400% pure zoomst or make corrections completely covered, hardly makes a difference to see.

The slow motion function, moreover, makes a lot of fun.

frank

[Glen Vandermolen]

Originally Posted by Monday Isa

Steve where did you see that?

The JVC HMQ10, when recording 4K, uses 4 streams of 36mbps AVCHD each.
When it records in regular HD, it can go up to 1080/60P at 27mbps, which seems like AVCHD 2.0, but JVC calls it AVCHD Progressive.

[Monday Isa]

Originally Posted by Glen Vandermolen

The JVC HMQ10, when recording 4K, uses 4 streams of 36mbps AVCHD each.
When it records in regular HD, it can go up to 1080/60P at 27mbps, which seems like AVCHD 2.0, but JVC calls it AVCHD Progressive.

I misread what Steve posted. The way it sounded was as if JVC will be doing 4K in avchd now which I thought wasn't the case and they'd do it 4 streams mpeg2 as you stated and they have said.

[Steve Mullen]

My memory says the early new was 4 streams of H.264 -- each at 36Mbps.

That makes sense because AVCHD 2.0 existed at only up to 28Mbps.

It seems JVC is using something called "AVCHD Progressive" which supports 36Mbps. I don't see why JVC wouldn't use if for HD at 1080p60 since 4K2K is just QuadHD.

To be called AVCHD, JVC has joined the AVCHD group. I have no idea if "AVCHD Progressive" will be only for them -- or if Sony and Panasonic will release new camcorders with "AVCHD Progressive." My guess the VG30 will use "AVCHD Progressive."

As I posted a while back, the $900 JVC GC-PX10 uses 36Mbps and it is the best looking 1080p60 I've ever seen. Interestingly, this matches the experience of those who hack their GH2 to IP-frame at 70+ Mbps. My guess is that to make low data rate work, detail is really filtered out. Uping the rate makes even still images clearer.

PS: I'm wondering how the FS700's chip that yields enough pixels for 4K makes FullHD?

[Chris Hurd]

Thread moved to our new FS700 forum.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

PS: For a year I've been stuck on the idea the F3 and FS100 chip that Sony won't fully describe can capture 4K2K. (I think it uses clusters of photocites to capture HD.?

I'd put a lot of money that that is not true of the F3 - the coloured aliasing shown on zone plates is exactly what you'd expect from a 3.3 meagapixel chip.

But there is a bit of a mystery about charts from the FS100. Not quite as sharp as the F3 - but lacking in any coloured aliasing at all.

So what if the F3 and FS100 didn't have the same chip? What if the FS700 and FS100 had the same - and the difference between them is not a different chip - but how it's used?

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

PS: I'm wondering how the FS700's chip that yields enough pixels for 4K makes FullHD?

The statement I've read says: The FS700 has a newly designed 11.6M sensor, 8.3M which are used in the video mode.

Hmmm. 8.3M in video mode? Does that ring any bells? C300 anybody? (2x1920)x(2x1080)=8,294,400 - which seems pretty close to 8.3M for me! I'd assume direct read of 2x2 blocks like the C300.

And it has 11.6M total - hence you can expect some that don't get used in the 1080 mode to be available for feeding out for 4k.

What this means is straightforward processing for 1080 video (as the C300) or direct RAW output for 4k. (Hence little in camera processing.)

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

a) I wonder if it has S-log with RAW? Given it's 10bits, I expect yes.

b) I assume Sony SRMaster deck can record, but will other cheaper units work with 4K?

The 4K raw output supposedly will be 12-bit, just like the sensor, according to Andy Shipsides of AbelCine (here).

As 3G-SDI doesn't support 4K yet, it seems Sony will probably be using it for simple high-bandwidth data transfer. That appears to be what indiecam does to record uncompressed 12-bit 2K CinemaDNG raw to the Hyperdeck Shuttle, which doesn't natively support 12 bits or raw. What I find even more interesting is that the Hyperdeck Shuttle doesn't even have a 3G-SDI port (just HD-SDI). If you're wondering whether 3G-SDI could theoretically handle the high data rates necessary for 4K, use this video bitrate calculator and input a 4K pixel size with 12-bit RAW (Bayer mask). You get a data rate of 2.55 Gbps at 24 fps, which just fits within the data capacity of 3G-SDI. QuadHD would of course have an even smaller data rate. Obviously, some compression, à la REDCODE RAW or CineForm-RAW, would reduce data rates appreciably (e.g., typical CineForm-RAW 4K data rates are more like 300-400 Mbps). So, if the raw is compressed in camera, maybe there will be a way of recording it to a cheap(ish) Hyperdeck Shuttle. I could see a 3G-SDI version, supporting 6-Gbps SSDs, for less than $1K. But then Sony would lose a lot of money -- what are SR-R1s, $15K? And SRMemory cards, $4K a pop?

[Frank Glencairn]

Originally Posted by Werner Graf

slashCAM Forum :: Thema - Sony NEX-FS700 mit 4K S35 CMOS und 3G SDI Out
This guy tested it allready

Glencairn Frank wrote:
I could play for a few days with the baby.

What can I say, I'm starting to save for ever. ;-)
The next day I write a review

best, Frank

Yes, 4:2:2 would be nice, but honestly I was really surprised at the inclusion in the quality of the AVCHD FS700.
I've recorded simultaneously with NEM samurai 4:2:2 SDI and if you are not 400% pure zoomst or make corrections completely covered, hardly makes a difference to see.

The slow motion function, moreover, makes a lot of fun.

frank

LOL - automatic translations ;-)

I don´t save "for ever" - I started to save my pennies.
And I´m surprised by the quality of the implementation of AVCHD by Sony.
Unless you don´t zoom 400% into the material, you will be hard pressed to see a difference.

Tomorrow comes the official launch film for the FS700.
Probably on the Sony site and maybe on Vimeo.

I keep you guys posted.

Frank

[Steve Mullen]

Great post Lawrence.

The long word data world seems to be divides into 10-bits with log and 12-bits with linear.

The F65 has a 16-bit sensor output. I assume the F3 is 14-bits. So it makes sense the NEX family is 12-bits. If a camera can record 12-bits from a 12-bit sensor it makes sense to do so as no LUT technology is neded.

It also may explain why Sony wanted the F3 to ship with the S-log firmware -- it puts a stock F3 into a very different category than the FS700.

Sony's SRMaster decks have 3G HD-SDI. This makes them able to handle 4K at 24 and 25fps -- which works for filmmakers. But, these decks are very expensive.

Since RAW is most often compressed (virtually or visually lossless) -- as you point-out -- it can be recorded to fast cards. But this would mean it would be the deck that does the compression. (Otherwise, no need for a 3G connection.)

So does Sony plan its own NEX RAW deck -- or are they working with 3rd-party companies to release "cheap" decks.

[Lawrence Bansbach]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

The F65 has a 16-bit sensor output. I assume the F3 is 14-bits. So it makes sense the NEX family is 12-bits. If a camera can record 12-bits from a 12-bit sensor it makes sense to do so as no LUT technology is neded.

If the FS100 has a 12-bit sensor and F3 uses the same one, then it too is 12-bit, as CMOS sensors have integrated ADCs.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Lawrence Bansbach

If the FS100 has a 12-bit sensor and F3 uses the same one, then it too is 12-bit, as CMOS sensors have integrated ADCs.

I don't fault your logic - but I'd apply it the other way. That the FS100 and F3 DON'T share the same sensor.

As said above, zone plates were already making me wonder about the FS100 (as with Steve), the FS700 reinforced that view (I think both it and the FS100 have 11 megapixel chips), and your point about integrated ADCs and bit depth also fits in. If the FS100/700 have more photosites, it follows they will each be smaller, hence likely less beneficial to have a higher bitdepth ADC, as with the F3.