Petition to Sony at DVinfo.net

Piotr Wozniacki · April 6th, 2011, 05:12 PM

I've been reading about the FS100, watching the first videos, considering all pros and cons - and even though I do know what mattebox is for and that screw-on filters exist - I still would like to articulate this once again:

- Dear Sony,

Before you start actual production of this little marvel, please redesign the front barrel of the camera (leaving the rear boxy body intact), and incorporate the proper ND filtering for us. If the filter wheel fits between the S35 imager and the lens mount flange on the F3, it will certainly fit into the FS100 as well - the space is just 2 mm shorter! All that is needed is some more place around this areas for the wheel mechanism itself, so making the front barrel would certainty suffice.

If you do that, you will show that you are really listening to your customers, and will make us very happy. The FS100 is all about controllable DOF, but also about compactness and ability to go places no fully-blown rig would be allowed. It's all about changing fast prime lenses frequently, while keeping the aperture wide open.

While using alternative ways of ND filtering is certainly viable - no matter how we look at it, it partially denies all the above features and virtues. Also, controlling the light by increasing shutter speed is not practical, as the FS100 is a movie camera, and movies cannot be filmed with varying shutter speeds...

Please, give us internal ND filter! Please allow us to be creative without so much hassle!

With due respect,

Piotr Wozniacki

PS. Dear fellow users of this great forum, please add your comments to this thread so it grows and hopefully gets through to Sony. At the same time, if some of you are of opposite opinion - please refrain from teaching us how to use our mattebixes, cross-polarizing variable ND filters, etc; not in this thread - please :)

Glen Vandermolen · April 6th, 2011, 05:51 PM

I agree - but, no chance of this happening.

After the earthquake, I think Sony is doing all it can just to gear back up for regular production, much less delay a new product over a costly re-design.

Craig Seeman · April 6th, 2011, 06:14 PM

I also agree.
Just as the EX1 was updated to the EX1R, I think Sony may update the FS100 . . . in about 12 to 18 months. They will listen. They move slowly.

I really don't want to be locked into using a Matte Box or screw in filters on every shoot. As much as the FS100 has advantages over the AF100 I have to seriously consider the additional time and cost on the lower budget client shoots I do.

Chris Medico · April 6th, 2011, 06:39 PM

Piotr,

I know this won't be a popular response but.. Sony already has that camera available. Its just much more expensive than the FS100.

I know exactly how much more expensive. There is an F3 sitting still in its box next to me as I type this response.

I would be surprised if changes like that are implemented any time soon. It would cut into the sales of the F3. Once the details of the FS100 came out I had to rethink my decision to buy one. In the end I decided to pony up more cash and get the camera that offered the complete package. I wasn't happy about spending double but thats what I had to do.

I'm sure Sony made the choices they did regarding the features on the FS100 deliberately.

Chris Medico

Les Wilson · April 6th, 2011, 07:16 PM

Just because they won't fix it doesn't mean it won't suffer the same fate as the VG10... a dud. Don't buy the FS100 if it's DOA for you. Go buy from a camera maker who delivers the camera you need.

Gabe Strong · April 6th, 2011, 09:01 PM

I agree. ND filters is a make it or break it feature for me. And no, I
don't want to add screw in filters or a mattbox. So, I won't buy it,
and I'll continue to hang on to my money until a camera comes along that
actually does everything I want (the FS 100 would have been it with built
in ND filters.) I know, the F3 is there, but it is a little out of my price range....it's close, but not quite there for me. Not saying it isn't worth it's price, just a little much for me.

Glen Vandermolen · April 6th, 2011, 09:09 PM

The AF100 has ND filters. And HD/SDI. It's a very good option.

Gabe Strong · April 7th, 2011, 03:07 AM

You're right. The AF100 DOES have ND filters which is a big plus for it
in my book. However, there are other reasons I don't want to spend my
money on the AF100.....not to bash it either, it's a fine camera. If I
could combine some of the features of the FS 100 with the AF 100, I'd be
set :-) Of course that is the way it usually works I guess. Not a huge
deal, I bet before too long, someone will make the camera I want to spend
money on, and until then, I'll just keep getting by like I have been
for the last few years.

Andy Wilkinson · April 7th, 2011, 03:54 AM

Piotr,

It is very simple. If you don't like what a manufacturer offers then don't buy that product. I own cameras by Sony (several), Canon, Panasonic and Nikon. Each are (or were) best in class for my specific needs at the time I bought them. Don't like the FS100 then buy the AF100 if you need that functionality etc...

As already stated. Sony has made a commercial decision with regard to the market placement of the FS100 relative to its F3, the Panasonic AF100 (and everything else that's out there/they think might soon appear from their competitors).

They also have much work to do, no doubt, to recover from the terrible events in Japan.

It's a free market and customers like us will decide the commercial success of the FS100 at its current price point, not a petition, and that's all that matters to Sony, how well it sells.

Alas, we ALL HOPE manufacturers would actually listen a lot more to their potential customers.... BEFORE they design their next camera, not afterwards! Big Sigh....

Adrian Evans · April 7th, 2011, 03:59 AM

Well I'll reply as to "Sign" the petition.

As it is, I'm either going to wait for something a bit better or just get the AF100.

F3 is a bit out of my price range at the moment.

That said, if Sony do put in some ND filter system, I will buy the FS100... just not holding my breath on that one. ;)

Piotr Wozniacki · April 7th, 2011, 04:59 AM

The F3 is quite another league, and differs from the FS100 with many more advanced features than ND filters. Sony's marketing decision is wrong - and not just for us, but to Sony themselves. They will be losing sales not to their own F3, but to the Panasonic's AF100. Especially if it turns out that what BBC is saying about the actual pixel count on the S35 chip is true...

Piotr

Jason Burkhimer · April 7th, 2011, 05:06 AM

*burk signs

Andy Wilkinson · April 7th, 2011, 05:11 AM

I agree their Marketing guys got this one very wrong (I spent 25 years working in R&D closely with Marketing guys, for global companies, so I know exactly how these things go).

It's very frustrating but life goes on. We've all been here before, the false dawn, another wasted opportunity by company that really should have the capability to deliver exactly what's needed... Someone sooner or later will get the mix of price/technical capability/functionality/build quality and that "oh ahh" image we all want just right - and I'll be first in line to buy it!

Steve Mullen · April 7th, 2011, 11:31 AM

As I posted in a different thread, Sony knows exactly the customer to which it is pitching the NEX FAMILY. Just Apple knew exactly for whom the iPad was aimed at. In both cases the key was what to leave off. This is how a company creates a new niche. A new set of buyers! This is how a company grows faster than the replacement market. The NEX is in the top 3 cameras sold in Japan, from nothing, in one year. I suspect the iPad has done the same for Apple.

In both cases a customer has two alternatives: buy a more expensive model from the same company or a buy another brand.

The point of having a marketing program is to convince you that you really really do not want to buy from another company. Marketing works on your emotions. Good marketing begins with creating a design upon which it can create emotion. Style, not functionality, is today about 75% of the job. Today, the remaining 25% is affiliation (Avid really uses this) and aspirational (FCP uses this) messages. IF Sony marketing does it job well, very few will switch sides.

There are, in the end, very few who will look at technology and refuse to buy an FS100 because it doesn't have the ND filter wheel needed to get a shallow DOF and to avoid diffraction from the aperture being too small. Trust me, NEX buyers do not have any understanding of these concepts! I read their posts every day. When I try to solve their video problems using such concepts they blank out. They have no understanding of photography. Sony took great pains to be sure the NEX cameras had only TWO buttons.

The VG10 has more buttons, but I'm willing to bet the average buyer never presses any.

And, the average FS100 buyer will treat the camera as a camcorder. They may be puzzled why they don't get a shallow DOF in bright light. But, this will not matter because in most all situations they will get better color and lower noise images than they do with any other camcorder. And, they have the coolest looking camcorder ever, man.

For everyone on this list, there will be a 1000 or 10000 who will fall in love the FS100 and buy it.

Lastly, the biggest problems buyers will find are that they will not be able to smoothly zoom while shooting and the camera will not AF on anything moving rapidly. (Sometimes it won't find focus at all.) Try explaining this is because the NEX uses Contrast AF and not Phase AF as does their camcorder. I'll bet there are several here who do not know the NEX use C-AF and if they do -- have no idea how either works. And, have no idea why I might recommend never using C-AF when shooting a tree.

PS: those who buy an adaptor and A-mount lenses will quickly find that if they use AF -- and they will try to use AF even if they will never admit to it -- it takes 5 to 10 seconds to obtain focus on a STATIC object.

Serena Steuart · April 13th, 2011, 08:08 PM

You buy the camera that does what you want. The lack of internal NDs is well down my list of needs; so no petition signature from me. Being able to use my Zeiss primes is very attractive, and they are fully manual. Good AF is about last; a capability I think unreliable in all cameras and never use (yes, really). But if you rely on AF, then of course it is important for your work. Why the anxious hassle? You're not forced to buy this camera.

April 6th, 2011, 05:12 PM	#1
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Petition to Sony I've been reading about the FS100, watching the first videos, considering all pros and cons - and even though I do know what mattebox is for and that screw-on filters exist - I still would like to articulate this once again: - Dear Sony, Before you start actual production of this little marvel, please redesign the front barrel of the camera (leaving the rear boxy body intact), and incorporate the proper ND filtering for us. If the filter wheel fits between the S35 imager and the lens mount flange on the F3, it will certainly fit into the FS100 as well - the space is just 2 mm shorter! All that is needed is some more place around this areas for the wheel mechanism itself, so making the front barrel would certainty suffice. If you do that, you will show that you are really listening to your customers, and will make us very happy. The FS100 is all about controllable DOF, but also about compactness and ability to go places no fully-blown rig would be allowed. It's all about changing fast prime lenses frequently, while keeping the aperture wide open. While using alternative ways of ND filtering is certainly viable - no matter how we look at it, it partially denies all the above features and virtues. Also, controlling the light by increasing shutter speed is not practical, as the FS100 is a movie camera, and movies cannot be filmed with varying shutter speeds... Please, give us internal ND filter! Please allow us to be creative without so much hassle! With due respect, Piotr Wozniacki PS. Dear fellow users of this great forum, please add your comments to this thread so it grows and hopefully gets through to Sony. At the same time, if some of you are of opposite opinion - please refrain from teaching us how to use our mattebixes, cross-polarizing variable ND filters, etc; not in this thread - please :) __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

April 6th, 2011, 05:51 PM	#2
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: Petition to Sony I agree - but, no chance of this happening. After the earthquake, I think Sony is doing all it can just to gear back up for regular production, much less delay a new product over a costly re-design.

April 6th, 2011, 06:14 PM	#3
Craig Seeman Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2004 Location: Brooklyn, NY, USA Posts: 3,841	Re: Petition to Sony I also agree. Just as the EX1 was updated to the EX1R, I think Sony may update the FS100 . . . in about 12 to 18 months. They will listen. They move slowly. I really don't want to be locked into using a Matte Box or screw in filters on every shoot. As much as the FS100 has advantages over the AF100 I have to seriously consider the additional time and cost on the lower budget client shoots I do.

April 6th, 2011, 06:39 PM	#4
Chris Medico Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Efland NC, USA Posts: 2,322	Re: Petition to Sony Piotr, I know this won't be a popular response but.. Sony already has that camera available. Its just much more expensive than the FS100. I know exactly how much more expensive. There is an F3 sitting still in its box next to me as I type this response. I would be surprised if changes like that are implemented any time soon. It would cut into the sales of the F3. Once the details of the FS100 came out I had to rethink my decision to buy one. In the end I decided to pony up more cash and get the camera that offered the complete package. I wasn't happy about spending double but thats what I had to do. I'm sure Sony made the choices they did regarding the features on the FS100 deliberately. Chris Medico __________________ http://www.LandYachtMedia.com Last edited by Chris Medico; April 7th, 2011 at 07:15 AM.

April 6th, 2011, 07:16 PM	#5
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Re: Petition to Sony Just because they won't fix it doesn't mean it won't suffer the same fate as the VG10... a dud. Don't buy the FS100 if it's DOA for you. Go buy from a camera maker who delivers the camera you need.

April 6th, 2011, 09:01 PM	#6
Gabe Strong Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 814	Re: Petition to Sony I agree. ND filters is a make it or break it feature for me. And no, I don't want to add screw in filters or a mattbox. So, I won't buy it, and I'll continue to hang on to my money until a camera comes along that actually does everything I want (the FS 100 would have been it with built in ND filters.) I know, the F3 is there, but it is a little out of my price range....it's close, but not quite there for me. Not saying it isn't worth it's price, just a little much for me.

April 6th, 2011, 09:09 PM	#7
Glen Vandermolen Space Hipster Join Date: Jun 2003 Location: Jacksonville, FL Posts: 1,596	Re: Petition to Sony The AF100 has ND filters. And HD/SDI. It's a very good option.

April 7th, 2011, 03:07 AM	#8
Gabe Strong Major Player Join Date: Jul 2002 Location: Juneau, AK Posts: 814	Re: Petition to Sony You're right. The AF100 DOES have ND filters which is a big plus for it in my book. However, there are other reasons I don't want to spend my money on the AF100.....not to bash it either, it's a fine camera. If I could combine some of the features of the FS 100 with the AF 100, I'd be set :-) Of course that is the way it usually works I guess. Not a huge deal, I bet before too long, someone will make the camera I want to spend money on, and until then, I'll just keep getting by like I have been for the last few years.

April 7th, 2011, 03:54 AM	#9
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Petition to Sony Piotr, It is very simple. If you don't like what a manufacturer offers then don't buy that product. I own cameras by Sony (several), Canon, Panasonic and Nikon. Each are (or were) best in class for my specific needs at the time I bought them. Don't like the FS100 then buy the AF100 if you need that functionality etc... As already stated. Sony has made a commercial decision with regard to the market placement of the FS100 relative to its F3, the Panasonic AF100 (and everything else that's out there/they think might soon appear from their competitors). They also have much work to do, no doubt, to recover from the terrible events in Japan. It's a free market and customers like us will decide the commercial success of the FS100 at its current price point, not a petition, and that's all that matters to Sony, how well it sells. Alas, we ALL HOPE manufacturers would actually listen a lot more to their potential customers.... BEFORE they design their next camera, not afterwards! Big Sigh.... __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

April 7th, 2011, 03:59 AM	#10
Adrian Evans New Boot Join Date: Sep 2006 Location: Hong Kong Posts: 19	Re: Petition to Sony Well I'll reply as to "Sign" the petition. As it is, I'm either going to wait for something a bit better or just get the AF100. F3 is a bit out of my price range at the moment. That said, if Sony do put in some ND filter system, I will buy the FS100... just not holding my breath on that one. ;)

April 7th, 2011, 04:59 AM	#11
Piotr Wozniacki Inner Circle Join Date: Aug 2006 Location: Poland Posts: 4,086	Re: Petition to Sony The F3 is quite another league, and differs from the FS100 with many more advanced features than ND filters. Sony's marketing decision is wrong - and not just for us, but to Sony themselves. They will be losing sales not to their own F3, but to the Panasonic's AF100. Especially if it turns out that what BBC is saying about the actual pixel count on the S35 chip is true... Piotr __________________ Sony PXW-FS7 \| DaVinci Resolve Studio; Magix Vegas Pro; i7-5960X CPU; 64 GB RAM; 2x GTX 1080 8GB GPU; Decklink 4K Extreme 12G; 4x 3TB WD Black in RAID 0; 1TB M.2 NVMe cache drive

April 7th, 2011, 05:06 AM	#12
Jason Burkhimer Major Player Join Date: Feb 2006 Location: Virginia Beach, VA Posts: 220	Re: Petition to Sony *burk signs

April 7th, 2011, 05:11 AM	#13
Andy Wilkinson Inner Circle Join Date: Sep 2007 Location: Cambridge UK Posts: 2,853	Re: Petition to Sony I agree their Marketing guys got this one very wrong (I spent 25 years working in R&D closely with Marketing guys, for global companies, so I know exactly how these things go). It's very frustrating but life goes on. We've all been here before, the false dawn, another wasted opportunity by company that really should have the capability to deliver exactly what's needed... Someone sooner or later will get the mix of price/technical capability/functionality/build quality and that "oh ahh" image we all want just right - and I'll be first in line to buy it! __________________ Andy K Wilkinson - https://www.shootingimage.co.uk Cambridge (UK) Corporate Video Production

April 7th, 2011, 11:31 AM	#14
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	Re: Petition to Sony As I posted in a different thread, Sony knows exactly the customer to which it is pitching the NEX FAMILY. Just Apple knew exactly for whom the iPad was aimed at. In both cases the key was what to leave off. This is how a company creates a new niche. A new set of buyers! This is how a company grows faster than the replacement market. The NEX is in the top 3 cameras sold in Japan, from nothing, in one year. I suspect the iPad has done the same for Apple. In both cases a customer has two alternatives: buy a more expensive model from the same company or a buy another brand. The point of having a marketing program is to convince you that you really really do not want to buy from another company. Marketing works on your emotions. Good marketing begins with creating a design upon which it can create emotion. Style, not functionality, is today about 75% of the job. Today, the remaining 25% is affiliation (Avid really uses this) and aspirational (FCP uses this) messages. IF Sony marketing does it job well, very few will switch sides. There are, in the end, very few who will look at technology and refuse to buy an FS100 because it doesn't have the ND filter wheel needed to get a shallow DOF and to avoid diffraction from the aperture being too small. Trust me, NEX buyers do not have any understanding of these concepts! I read their posts every day. When I try to solve their video problems using such concepts they blank out. They have no understanding of photography. Sony took great pains to be sure the NEX cameras had only TWO buttons. The VG10 has more buttons, but I'm willing to bet the average buyer never presses any. And, the average FS100 buyer will treat the camera as a camcorder. They may be puzzled why they don't get a shallow DOF in bright light. But, this will not matter because in most all situations they will get better color and lower noise images than they do with any other camcorder. And, they have the coolest looking camcorder ever, man. For everyone on this list, there will be a 1000 or 10000 who will fall in love the FS100 and buy it. Lastly, the biggest problems buyers will find are that they will not be able to smoothly zoom while shooting and the camera will not AF on anything moving rapidly. (Sometimes it won't find focus at all.) Try explaining this is because the NEX uses Contrast AF and not Phase AF as does their camcorder. I'll bet there are several here who do not know the NEX use C-AF and if they do -- have no idea how either works. And, have no idea why I might recommend never using C-AF when shooting a tree. PS: those who buy an adaptor and A-mount lenses will quickly find that if they use AF -- and they will try to use AF even if they will never admit to it -- it takes 5 to 10 seconds to obtain focus on a STATIC object. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

April 13th, 2011, 08:08 PM	#15
Serena Steuart Major Player Join Date: Jun 2006 Location: Studio Alnitak, Melbourne, Victoria, Australia Posts: 640 Images: 3	Re: Petition to Sony You buy the camera that does what you want. The lack of internal NDs is well down my list of needs; so no petition signature from me. Being able to use my Zeiss primes is very attractive, and they are fully manual. Good AF is about last; a capability I think unreliable in all cameras and never use (yes, really). But if you rely on AF, then of course it is important for your work. Why the anxious hassle? You're not forced to buy this camera.