My nx70 tests

Gerald OConnor · June 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM

I don't notice any nx70 focus issues but someone commented they did. I also think both did very well in low light but feel canon was a little better. Thanks

Adam Palomer · June 23rd, 2011, 06:40 PM

I opened these clips in two different browser tabs, paused the two on matching frames and then switched back and forth between the two. From that, I was able to see that in auto mode the Sony's low light performance was slightly better. As for manual mode, well, that was a bit tricky. I'm not sure.

Gerald OConnor · June 23rd, 2011, 06:54 PM

Adam the more I look at it I think Sony in all auto best gets the colors correct at full zoom but it's a bit blown out orange/red wide angle the manual settings are most likely me and poss white balance I used indoor WB on all tests both cameras. I could properly do much better after useing white card for MWB. The canon seems brighter and sharper putting my pick for canon at this point need to do a bunch more tests.

Adam Palomer · June 23rd, 2011, 10:27 PM

Gerald,

Thank you for that explanation. The Sony does seem to retain better color in low light.

My experience is that manufacturers sometimes set White Balance presets at slightly different values. So the Indoor preset could be different on each camera.

I think the best way to compare the two in manual mode would be to set them both on a table next to each other and cancel all the auto settings. It's best if the light source (60 Watt bulb) was to the side of the camera or behind the camera. That way, lens flare and other possible optical distortions won't affect the cameras.

Iris
Shutter speed
Gain
Frame rate
Resolution (480, 720, or 1080)
Focus
Manual white balance
Scene modes (should be turned off)
Image stabilization (Off)
Interlace vs. Progressive

All the above should be done manually.

Given that the aperture of lenses usually changes as one zooms in or out, I think matching the focal length on the two cameras is the scientific thing to do. So since the Sony has a wider lens (26mm), I suppose you could zoom it in a little to match the Canon's 30.4mm.

Also, I don't know if the Canon has a Backlight feature or an Extended Focus feature, but these settings should probably be looked at, too.

Final note: It's possible that in Auto Mode the Sony is programmed to boost the gain to 24dB while the Canon is programmed to boost it to 18dB. I don't know that for a fact, but it's a possibility that should not be discounted.

Ron Evans · June 24th, 2011, 05:51 AM

I think you may find the picture is better in auto mode on these small single chip cameras. Rather than going full manual I have found it better to tell the auto controls what I would like done to the picture. There is AE shift ( make it darker or lighter) and WB shift. The NX70 has an advantage over the CX700 in that one can set gain limit. But even at full 21db gain the CX700 seems to have less grain than my NX5U at 12db !!!

One has to be careful in comparing models to not measure based on a manual set only. Much like evaluating cars on how fast they will go in third gear of an automatic transmission !!!

I use my CX700 and XR500 as full stage fixed unattended cameras for my shows with my NX5U in full manual. The CX700 and XR500 are set with AE shift at max negative shift with auto scene detection on. The only part of any scene that is over exposed are obvious stage hot spots that I cannot avoid with the NX5U at any setting either and both these little cameras ignore these poor lighting instances and correctly expose for the main stage in almost all conditions. The one area they do not manage is a black stage with one spot light on an actor. If I zoom in with either the CX700 or XR500 they will switch to spotlight mode and correctly expose. They will also manage focus to maintain max depth of field and will alter WB depending on scene detect or if faces are detected.

Sometimes I really wish the NX5U had some of the smarts in these little cameras !!!!

Ron Evans

Adam Palomer · June 24th, 2011, 06:24 AM

Ron,

You make an interesting point and it makes sense. But, from a practical point of view, if a camera performs in auto mode better than it does in manual mode, then doesn't that defeat the purpose of investing so much in a camcorder?

I personally like manual controls as they provide me with the artistic freedom to adjust the image to my liking. At the same time, if I can accomplish the same results with a $500 camcorder instead of a $3000 camcorder, then it's obvious which I would pick.

At the end of the day, at least for my needs, I would pick the camera that performs better under full manual control, with no factory presets. I don't doubt that one can achieve better results using a mix of the two, manual and auto, like you suggest. However, it's something that I personally never liked when interacting with electronics. I mean, when I set an iris to 1.8f I know that it will let in more light. But, with consumer cameras, the various AE settings and scene modes turn the whole shooting process into a guessing game. But, like I said, that's my own biased preference.

Ron Evans · June 24th, 2011, 09:33 AM

I agree in terms of artistic freedom that manual controls are the way to go. Just don't confuse freedom with better video quality. A lot of engineers spent a lot of time designing a computer to make judgements at lightning fast speed to get the best shot. Much faster than a humans fingers !!! If you want to do something not possible in editing then I agree manual control at source is the way to go. However for full artistic freedom a DSLR may be a better choice for less money than the NX70.

The attraction of the NX70 over the CX700 to me is the manual controls so I am not pushing full auto mode for everything. Also the attraction of the NX70 over the NX5U for me is some of the automatic controls that the NX5U lacks. Different tools for different jobs.

Ron Evans

Jean Philippe Stuart · June 24th, 2011, 01:31 PM

Hey Gerald, on the macro video posted on Youtube, why the PCM (camera factory setting apparently) didn't work?

Gerald OConnor · June 27th, 2011, 01:19 PM

Well after a lot of little tests I sent it back. The main reason was no pcm sound playback in 1080p60. A 3k camera should not do this and at this price point I want it to just work not have little issues. Two things I hated with this camera was the zoom rocker's speed and the import software. Two things I loved about this camera was it's nice sharp/color video and the macro function. I have to say in auto mode the camera did great. Another little issue I had and I posted on my vimeo site

was in good daylight it would lose focus while panning and had a hard time re-locking on. I wished it did better for me but it had to many little issues for me to keep it.

Ron Evans · June 27th, 2011, 01:44 PM

I think the PCM sound issue is an NLE issue rather than the camera. What NLE are you using? I think the camera focused really quick from your Vimeo video. I don't think any camera will do much better with the speed that you were panning in the beginning over the cars. It focused really quick in the other shots when you zoomed in to various items.

The zoom control on my CX700 is also very sensitive much worse than the XR500 or SR11. I expect its the same with just the lever changed.

Cannot comment on your install of the software or its operation with the NX70 but both the CMU for my NX5U and the MBS for the consumer cameras work great.

If you operate in automatic most of the time and do not need the XLR audio or water proofing the CX700 may be a better choice and save $2000.

Ron Evans

Mike Beckett · June 27th, 2011, 01:49 PM

I find the auto focus very good indeed, but everyone's use is different.

The zoom rocker does make it tough to get a slow crawl, I haven't had any joy with that. But I don't really zoom that much - and when I do, it's on tripod, with a lanc control. It's great for crash zooms and for framing.

I was out with the camera again this past weekend (footage to follow) and couldn't be happier with it. I'll be happier when a 37mm fader ND is available to cope with ultra-bright weather.

Peter Erfurt · June 27th, 2011, 03:04 PM

I think that you'll find that using the zoom-controls on the touchscreen is MUCH superior to do slow zooms than the physical rocker. Try it out, and I bet you'll be surprised.... :-)

Troy Moss · June 27th, 2011, 07:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Gerald OConnor

Here are some low light tests for the nx70 and canon xa10
room lite with a 60 watt energy bulb

canon xa10 lowlight test auto settings on Vimeo

Sony NX70 Light all auto settings on Vimeo

If you pause the two "Auto Setting" videos at 20 seconds, you will clearly see the low light winner is the Sony! Compare all the colors on the teddy bear in the video too.

Gerald OConnor · June 28th, 2011, 03:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

I think the PCM sound issue is an NLE issue rather than the camera. What NLE are you using? I think the camera focused really quick from your Vimeo video. I don't think any camera will do much better with the speed that you were panning in the beginning over the cars. It focused really quick in the other shots when you zoomed in to various items.

The zoom control on my CX700 is also very sensitive much worse than the XR500 or SR11. I expect its the same with just the lever changed.

Cannot comment on your install of the software or its operation with the NX70 but both the CMU for my NX5U and the MBS for the consumer cameras work great.

If you operate in automatic most of the time and do not need the XLR audio or water proofing the CX700 may be a better choice and save $2000.

Ron Evans

I was useing Sony Vegas Pro 10.d I also tried to upload to Vimeo and any clips that I have raw in 1080p60 with PCM will not upload and convert gives errors. If I used dolby it was fine. The sound played fine direct from camera to tv. I don't use my cameras in auto that much mostly manual settings but the nx70 was great in auto. I will post a xa10 clip same panning never lost focus when the Sony lost focus it reminded me of it's little brother cx560 who could not stay in focus. When I had my nx5u I only lost focus in lowlight areas never in daylight. I hope they fix the PCM issues it could be a great camera. I may go back to the xf 100 or the xf300. I also like the Sony fs100.

Gerald OConnor · June 28th, 2011, 03:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Peter Erfurt

I think that you'll find that using the zoom-controls on the touchscreen is MUCH superior to do slow zooms than the physical rocker. Try it out, and I bet you'll be surprised.... :-)

Sent it back, never tried the LCD zoom but I did a bunch of hand zooms but they looked jurkie not being smooth like a good slow rocker could do.

June 23rd, 2011, 05:26 PM	#16
Gerald OConnor Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Princeton MA Posts: 142	Re: My nx70 tests I don't notice any nx70 focus issues but someone commented they did. I also think both did very well in low light but feel canon was a little better. Thanks

June 23rd, 2011, 06:40 PM	#17
Adam Palomer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Summit, NJ Posts: 169	Re: My nx70 tests I opened these clips in two different browser tabs, paused the two on matching frames and then switched back and forth between the two. From that, I was able to see that in auto mode the Sony's low light performance was slightly better. As for manual mode, well, that was a bit tricky. I'm not sure.

June 23rd, 2011, 06:54 PM	#18
Gerald OConnor Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Princeton MA Posts: 142	Re: My nx70 tests Adam the more I look at it I think Sony in all auto best gets the colors correct at full zoom but it's a bit blown out orange/red wide angle the manual settings are most likely me and poss white balance I used indoor WB on all tests both cameras. I could properly do much better after useing white card for MWB. The canon seems brighter and sharper putting my pick for canon at this point need to do a bunch more tests.

June 23rd, 2011, 10:27 PM	#19
Adam Palomer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Summit, NJ Posts: 169	Re: My nx70 tests Gerald, Thank you for that explanation. The Sony does seem to retain better color in low light. My experience is that manufacturers sometimes set White Balance presets at slightly different values. So the Indoor preset could be different on each camera. I think the best way to compare the two in manual mode would be to set them both on a table next to each other and cancel all the auto settings. It's best if the light source (60 Watt bulb) was to the side of the camera or behind the camera. That way, lens flare and other possible optical distortions won't affect the cameras. Iris Shutter speed Gain Frame rate Resolution (480, 720, or 1080) Focus Manual white balance Scene modes (should be turned off) Image stabilization (Off) Interlace vs. Progressive All the above should be done manually. Given that the aperture of lenses usually changes as one zooms in or out, I think matching the focal length on the two cameras is the scientific thing to do. So since the Sony has a wider lens (26mm), I suppose you could zoom it in a little to match the Canon's 30.4mm. Also, I don't know if the Canon has a Backlight feature or an Extended Focus feature, but these settings should probably be looked at, too. Final note: It's possible that in Auto Mode the Sony is programmed to boost the gain to 24dB while the Canon is programmed to boost it to 18dB. I don't know that for a fact, but it's a possibility that should not be discounted.

June 24th, 2011, 05:51 AM	#20
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: My nx70 tests I think you may find the picture is better in auto mode on these small single chip cameras. Rather than going full manual I have found it better to tell the auto controls what I would like done to the picture. There is AE shift ( make it darker or lighter) and WB shift. The NX70 has an advantage over the CX700 in that one can set gain limit. But even at full 21db gain the CX700 seems to have less grain than my NX5U at 12db !!! One has to be careful in comparing models to not measure based on a manual set only. Much like evaluating cars on how fast they will go in third gear of an automatic transmission !!! I use my CX700 and XR500 as full stage fixed unattended cameras for my shows with my NX5U in full manual. The CX700 and XR500 are set with AE shift at max negative shift with auto scene detection on. The only part of any scene that is over exposed are obvious stage hot spots that I cannot avoid with the NX5U at any setting either and both these little cameras ignore these poor lighting instances and correctly expose for the main stage in almost all conditions. The one area they do not manage is a black stage with one spot light on an actor. If I zoom in with either the CX700 or XR500 they will switch to spotlight mode and correctly expose. They will also manage focus to maintain max depth of field and will alter WB depending on scene detect or if faces are detected. Sometimes I really wish the NX5U had some of the smarts in these little cameras !!!! Ron Evans

June 24th, 2011, 06:24 AM	#21
Adam Palomer Regular Crew Join Date: May 2006 Location: Summit, NJ Posts: 169	Re: My nx70 tests Ron, You make an interesting point and it makes sense. But, from a practical point of view, if a camera performs in auto mode better than it does in manual mode, then doesn't that defeat the purpose of investing so much in a camcorder? I personally like manual controls as they provide me with the artistic freedom to adjust the image to my liking. At the same time, if I can accomplish the same results with a $500 camcorder instead of a $3000 camcorder, then it's obvious which I would pick. At the end of the day, at least for my needs, I would pick the camera that performs better under full manual control, with no factory presets. I don't doubt that one can achieve better results using a mix of the two, manual and auto, like you suggest. However, it's something that I personally never liked when interacting with electronics. I mean, when I set an iris to 1.8f I know that it will let in more light. But, with consumer cameras, the various AE settings and scene modes turn the whole shooting process into a guessing game. But, like I said, that's my own biased preference.

June 24th, 2011, 09:33 AM	#22
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: My nx70 tests I agree in terms of artistic freedom that manual controls are the way to go. Just don't confuse freedom with better video quality. A lot of engineers spent a lot of time designing a computer to make judgements at lightning fast speed to get the best shot. Much faster than a humans fingers !!! If you want to do something not possible in editing then I agree manual control at source is the way to go. However for full artistic freedom a DSLR may be a better choice for less money than the NX70. The attraction of the NX70 over the CX700 to me is the manual controls so I am not pushing full auto mode for everything. Also the attraction of the NX70 over the NX5U for me is some of the automatic controls that the NX5U lacks. Different tools for different jobs. Ron Evans

June 24th, 2011, 01:31 PM	#23
Jean Philippe Stuart New Boot Join Date: May 2011 Location: Beverly Hills Posts: 6	Pcm or dolby? Hey Gerald, on the macro video posted on Youtube, why the PCM (camera factory setting apparently) didn't work?

June 27th, 2011, 01:19 PM	#24
Gerald OConnor Regular Crew Join Date: Mar 2011 Location: Princeton MA Posts: 142	Re: My nx70 tests Well after a lot of little tests I sent it back. The main reason was no pcm sound playback in 1080p60. A 3k camera should not do this and at this price point I want it to just work not have little issues. Two things I hated with this camera was the zoom rocker's speed and the import software. Two things I loved about this camera was it's nice sharp/color video and the macro function. I have to say in auto mode the camera did great. Another little issue I had and I posted on my vimeo site nx70 test walking on Vimeo was in good daylight it would lose focus while panning and had a hard time re-locking on. I wished it did better for me but it had to many little issues for me to keep it.

June 27th, 2011, 01:44 PM	#25
Ron Evans Inner Circle Join Date: Mar 2003 Location: Ottawa, Ontario, Canada Posts: 4,220	Re: My nx70 tests I think the PCM sound issue is an NLE issue rather than the camera. What NLE are you using? I think the camera focused really quick from your Vimeo video. I don't think any camera will do much better with the speed that you were panning in the beginning over the cars. It focused really quick in the other shots when you zoomed in to various items. The zoom control on my CX700 is also very sensitive much worse than the XR500 or SR11. I expect its the same with just the lever changed. Cannot comment on your install of the software or its operation with the NX70 but both the CMU for my NX5U and the MBS for the consumer cameras work great. If you operate in automatic most of the time and do not need the XLR audio or water proofing the CX700 may be a better choice and save $2000. Ron Evans

June 27th, 2011, 01:49 PM	#26
Mike Beckett Trustee Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Antrim, Northern Ireland Posts: 1,569	Re: My nx70 tests I find the auto focus very good indeed, but everyone's use is different. The zoom rocker does make it tough to get a slow crawl, I haven't had any joy with that. But I don't really zoom that much - and when I do, it's on tripod, with a lanc control. It's great for crash zooms and for framing. I was out with the camera again this past weekend (footage to follow) and couldn't be happier with it. I'll be happier when a 37mm fader ND is available to cope with ultra-bright weather.

June 27th, 2011, 03:04 PM	#27
Peter Erfurt Regular Crew Join Date: Oct 2006 Location: Silkeborg Denmark Posts: 93	Re: My nx70 tests I think that you'll find that using the zoom-controls on the touchscreen is MUCH superior to do slow zooms than the physical rocker. Try it out, and I bet you'll be surprised.... :-)