NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?

[Andrew Maclaurin]

Chris,
as far as I know it doesn't have scene settings. Does the image break up if you colour correct? I convert everything to ProRes so it might be less of a problem than trying to colour correct the native files.
Going by the videos in the VG30 groups in Vimeo is seems most popular in eastern Europe. There's some good stuff and some pretty awful stuff but that's the case with any camera really. The thing is there is little comparing it to it's rivals, which to me are the aps-c dslrs, mft cameras and the sony ea-50, especially in real situations like weddings, documentary, commercial and corporate work etc.

[Chris Barcellos]

Essentially, with the codec, the color setting and contrast are pretty much baked in. Yes, you can adjust somewhat in post, but it just isn't the same as using something like Cinestyle on the Canon DSLRs.

I ve shot my VG 20 recording out to a Black Magic Shuttle 2 recorder. using the Prores codec available there. While I didn't do any grading of the files because they were turned over to the producer, they appeared to carry more information in the highs and lows that would withstand color correction better.

[Craig Marshall]

I agree with you Chris.The 8 bit 4:2:0 AVCHD codec was brilliantly designed to capture saturated detail and to be dumped to BD with minimal manipulation. In fact, I'll go so far as to say anyone trying to 'colour correct' any 8 bit compressed codec in post is wasting their time. They are not editing codecs like ProRes or DNxHD so not designed for that application and they do not have the required headroom.

Recording 4:2:2 direct to an SSD recorder is a great alternative as you have discovered but there is the additional expense, complication and none of the affordable SSD recorders will generate timecode nor will they yet record 50/60P only 50/60i. Consequently, I occasionally shoot with a Schneider Optics 'lowcon' filter which reduces highlights and lifts blacks thereby compressing the image in a similar way an audio circuit compresses sound prior to recording. Of course for maximum benefit, the image must be decompressed in post so rather than go out to a 3rd party recorder, I've found transcoding native AVCHD immediately to ProRes 10 bit 444 and working with this in post is a much better solution as the 10 bit signal offered much more headroom.

My current transcoder generates and inserts timecode and reel numbers into the 10 bit intermediates and proxies simultaneously, during the transcode thereby creating a very efficient, high quality and cost effective post production workflow for those wanting to get the best possible quality from the VG series.

I have uploaded some typical stills and screen grabs from a recent shoot in Japan in my reply to this post: http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/sony-avc...ll-camera.html (The difference in contrast and overall sharpness of the shots using the Zeiss/Metabones/Heliopan combo is immediately obvious, even in the thumbnails)

[Andrew Maclaurin]

Craig, thanks for the info.
I still think it´s weird that there is so little info on these cameras. Could it be because they are significantly more expensive than the canon aps-c dslrs?
Has anyone actually done a side by side test with a vg30 and a canon 7d, 600d, 700d or even 70d?
I´ve searched all over the net and I can´t find anything.

[Noa Put]

It seems Sony has a hard time selling these type of camera's, I saw the vg900 yesterday sold with a free offer of the Sony XLR-K1M xlr adapter, that's a 800 euro piece, for free... That's something you don't do if a camera sells well, they might give you a lenscap for free but not a expensive xlr adapter. :)

It might be the formfactor that looks to much like a handycam that could be the cause, and actually this is a much better formfactor to shoot video with then a dslr but maybe people are concerned about how they look with the camera in a professional environment.

[James Manford]

Bingo! ... For me any way, or I would of stuck to using VG10's or 20's and never got my EA50. Fact is, these camcorders have 'HANDYCAM' plastered on the side ... and your being paid as a professional, ufcourse you will be self-conscious. Nothing is worse than some one coming up to you and saying oh, handycam? dont you shoot with the big cameras anymore.

EDIT: having said that ... if you 'flower' up the way the camcorder looks like Craig did with the matte box and so on, it definitely looks the part. But here I go again about looks ... fact is, just learn your tool well enough to deliver the best product possible!

[Matt Sharp]

I bought an EA50s lens hood for my VG30 to help keep light off the lens. Bonus that it now looks like a "real" camera. I have a genus matte box that I occasionally use with some Samyang lenses but I usually run them with their stock hoods.

The most glaring omission is the lack of picture profiles. I also use a NEX 5R and 6 with custom creative style settings and have to match the VG30 footage's contrast and saturation to them in post.

[Andrew Maclaurin]

Personally, I'm not so sure about the worries as to whether a camera looks pro or not are such a big problem. Most clients accept that you might turn up with a photo camera to shoot a video. Unless you use a tiny palmcam most cameras could be pro now or have pro images, especially for web or dvd/bluray. The vg30 looks pretty big compared to some pro cams. I've yet to find any special offers on the vg900 and vg30 here in Spain although I'll keep an eye on the prices.

[Noa Put]

I"m sure it's not an issue if you turn up at a client with a camera that has handycam printed on the side, as long as they know what you deliver, if you do corporate shoots and charge accordingly then it might be an issue though, if you want I can send you the link of the site that did offer the XLR-K1M for free with a vg900 camera, it was a Dutch store.

[Chris Barcellos]

In comparison with the Canon line codec, there is nothing wrong with the codec on the VG line. The problem is with Sony's unwillingness to allow the user to adjust the picture and to set up profiles. The crippling of the camera line like that was clearly intended dissuade pro users from going that route over the FS line on their drawing boards.

In Sony's prerelease advertisement the picture profiles were included as a feature, I ordered my VG 20 the day of the release from the Sony store based on that. After challenging them for months on the advertising and the missing feature, I was offered a $ 200 refund on the purchase. Eventually, they changed the advertisement and features list..

I believe the VG line could have been a killer line if the controls had been provided. Sony was clearly shortsighted in its marketing plan, given the EOS line and the Black Magic line that has developed during the same period. But Sony likely will not fix that with a firmware upgrade to existing cameras. Instead, a new model may be sold that does what should have been done in the first place, and it will be called a pro model for a grand more. That is typical Sony and big camera manufacturer marketing.

[Craig Marshall]

Oddly, I've never had anyone comment about the 'handycam' logo. Mostly, they say something like: "hey, that's a 'real' camera!" You can always flip the screen around should you wish to hide the 'handycam' logo.

On a recent trip into the Australian 'outback', I bumped into a production crew shooting a music video and over breakfast at our historic bush hotel, I struck up a conversation with the DOP. He was from Melbourne and shooting this one on his own RED Epic coupled to a Samurai Blade HDD recorder. As the conversation turned to cameras, the Arri Alexa and Sony F55 in particular, I asked him if he had shot any material on the Canon 5DMk11.

I was not prepared for the tirade which followed: "Too much" was his curt reply. "Grips hated it, crews hated it, gaffers hated it, editors hated it!" "Don't hold back" I muttered, buttering another piece of toast... "The only people who liked it and wanted us to use it were Producers because they had bought one but at the end of the day, the pictures really were crap from that dreadful H.264 codec".

These comments from someone who evidently knew what he was talking about surprised me a bit as the 5D Mk 11 was the camera I'd been constantly recommended just 18 months previously and a camera which still has an almost iconic following among DSLR enthusiasts all over the world. This makes me ask the question: with the power of 20/20 hindsight vision, will the recent exciting offerings from BlackMagic, Digital Bolex, etc. be regarded in a similar light in just a few years time or was the DSLR 'explosion' just that: a blip in time and technology?

[Andrew Maclaurin]

Noa, the link could be interesting.
Chris, do you really find the lack of picture controls to be a big problem? From what I understand the sonys have a more robust avchd and the images might possibly stand up to more gradind even without flat settings.I convert to prores422. Would that help when grading?

[Noa Put]

just pm"d you

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Andrew Maclaurin

From what I understand the sonys have a more robust avchd and the images might possibly stand up to more gradind

28mbs avchd falls apart quickly if you start pushing it around in post, it's alway better to create the look you want in camera and then do some minor adjustments in post.

[Craig Marshall]

Another alternative for the VG series is to shoot 'flat' with a filter, then transcode the 8 bit AVCHD immediately to a 10 bit codec like DNxHD or ProRes 4444. You'll find considerably more 'headroom' available for 'colour correction' with a 10 bit NLE and 10 bit codec.