NEX-VG30 Did it miss the mark?

[Paul Wags]

Hey, is it easy to adjust the gain boost manually if you need it on the fly if your fstop is maxed out.
Cheers

[Noa Put]

Well, I do have a ea50 and a t2i and all I can say is that they are similar in performance, the ea50 has iso as well so it's easier to compare. If I apply the factory pp3 preset on the ea50 which is very flat but has the most latitude, if I want to match my t2i with that at say, 1600 iso, I need to apply the technicolor cinestyle preset to it. If I use any of the factory presets like neutral the t2I is darker. But the cinestyle preset makes a big difference on the t2I if you want to have more latitude as well.

Noise wise they are the same, I get the same amount of noise at 1600 iso on both camera's, for me that means 1600 iso is the max I use and 3200 if I need to get a shot. That applies to both camera's.

There are ea50 owners saying 5000iso is clean but on my camera at least it's certainly not, the noise levels are allready that high I consider it not usable on a paid production. 6400 iso, or 30db on the ea50 is just plain ugly with bugs crawling around the screen.

Now I do know that a 5dII produces a cleaner image then my t2i, on that camera 3200 iso would be comparable with 1600 iso on my t2i. The 5dIII however is another beast with clean iso up to 10000 iso.

Since the vg20/30 have the same sensor as the ea50 I would be surprised if it would outperfom the ea50 by such a margin as being said here, even up to a level it would rival the 5dIII and honestly, I don't believe it. Just like that there are people happy to shoot at 30db of gain (or 6400 iso) there are others that find 3200 iso already unacceptable. The youtube or vimeo video don't say much because the compression takes away most of the grain but only looking on a big screen in it's native format really shows the differences.

Eventhough I don't have a vg30 but supposedly the same performing ea50 I don't buy it that it performs the same as a 5dIII gain wise. That would be misleading information for anyone planning to buy the camera.

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[John Vincent]

Noa, I don't think anyone said they perform the same - at the very least, their grain structures will be different. And without a doubt, the VG20 smokes the T2i for low light performance - I used both of them last night on a shoot and it's simply not close.

As to whether the EA 50 produces a similar picture to a VG20, again, I can't personally say - I haven't used the 50. But if your 50 isn't a far bit better in low then your T2i it isn't performing as well as a VG20. Perhaps your unit is malfunctioning, or (the more likely scenario), Sony has once again done some tweaking. I'm shooting perfectly usable footage at 30 db in incredibly dark places - something I could never do with a T2i - and I have used every ML/Technicolor profile there is.

Far as a VG20 vs a Mark III goes, I haven't done tests, but for my money, the VG20 does very well indeed. Better? Maybe not. But better for the money? You betsya.

But as always, anyone considering buying a camera should always try to put their hands on one first. What looks great to my eye may be total crap to someone else. Certainly the rolling shutter is less on all the Canons then the VG20, and all the Canons have more control over the picture profile then the VG20.

[Noa Put]

In that case I can only conclude the vg20 outperforms the ea50 by quite a margin when it comes to low light.

[Paul Wags]

Well only way to find out if the camera is any good or not is to buy one and test.
So that's just what I did, post my thoughts when it arrives.
Then I may get one of those NEX 10-18mm lens with OSS and auto focus to fly on my stabilizers.

[Paul Wags]

Okay my VG30 turned up today, what an interesting little camera.

Side by side with my Canon 60D with the Tokina 11-16 m on zoomed to 16 mm its nearly the same FOV as the VG30 18-200mm full wide.

Early evening outside test.
Canon = 25p/3.5 ISO set to 640
Sony = 25p/3.5 @18 gain
Image looked about the same.

Auto focus is amazing.
VF is amazing.
Lens is sharp and with no real distortion I can see so far.
It shoots 50P :-)
Footage looks great and EDIUS cuts it up piece of cake.
It's a strange thing to use but I can see it being used for many gigs.
Would of been better if more buttons where on the outside.
Mic is useless when zooming or touching the camera but that's an easily fix.

I plan to get a NEX 10-18mm lens on it to fly on my Blackbird or Glidecam.

[John Vincent]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

In that case I can only conclude the vg20 outperforms the ea50 by quite a margin when it comes to low light.

Turns out, it just might. Phil Johnston over at HD Warrior is reviewing the 50 right now and had this to say:

"Update : I had a further play this morning and pointed the camera at a row of brick houses and surprisingly not a hint to moire, this is good news for the EA50 as the VG-20 suffered terrible moire patterning pointed at a row of houses especially the roof tiles. It’s always a good sign when a camera challenges you to produce poor footage."

Why should this matter? Well, cameras rarely can increase performance in one area, without reducing it in another (and I'm assuming both the VG20 and EA 50 use the same sensor). For proof of that, one has to look no further then the AF100 vs GH2 - the AF100 has almost no moire, but loses resolution/sharpness, while the GH2 is the other way around. I'm guessing (well, had already guessed), that Sony has monkeyed around with the firmware quite a bit between all these camera lines, from the VG10 to the 5N all the way up to the EA 50 (although the 10 uses a different sensor). We know for a fact that they've done much the same with their higher lineup of cameras, the FS100/700...

If true, it means that one particular "brew" of camera might well be better in low light, but suffer worse rolling shutter or moire even if the internal hardware is similar - or even exactly the same. In fact, that seems to be the rule rather then the exception. All of which means it's a wee bit dangerous to expect one variety of camera to perform exactly as another, regardless of how closely "related" they might seem.

[Dave Blackhurst]

John, that hits the nail on the head when referring to Sony...

I've seen it multiple times that while the specs and issue (when the camera comes to market) dates point to cameras using the "same" sensor, Sony can and does "tweak" the firmware and possibly the hardware both between models, and over time (later cams can perform drastically differently, sometimes showing improvement, sometimes NOT for the better).

I sometimes picture ther labs to be filled with "mad scientists" who are constantly "cooking" the mixtures of hardware and software! Sometimes the result is brilliance, but I have noticed more that a few times that sometimes you "lose" in another area of performance.

I had a NEX5n briefly, side by side with the VG20 (both of these cameras at least on paper share sensors and similar specs), from the bit of testing I did (neither extensive or "controlled", it was just a bit of fiddling to see if the 5n was of use to me, compared to the larger Alphas), I felt the VG20 performed better in several respects, but of course it's a bigger camera more optimized for video - though it actually is not bad as a "stills" camera!

Comparing camera performance is a tricky business at best, as it often takes time to figure out what "tweaks" are available (for instance the RX100 has FAR more image quality adjustments than you'll find at first glance, much happier with it after digging and poking a lot more with it!).

[Noa Put]

Well, judging based on below video the vg20 does not perform better then the ea50, check at the beginning of the video and at 02:22 where you see they perform the same with the ea50 even looking a bit brighter but that can be the result of the used picture profile. So, now I take the "VG20 smokes the T2i for low light performance" statement with a pinch of salt, and no, my ea50 is not malfunctioning like has been said. If anyone wants I can do a side by side with my 550d, they perform the same if you are applying the technicolour cinestyle profile to a 550d so anyone expecting a vg20 or 30 having 5dIII low light performance can keep dreaming, won't happen :) .

[John Vincent]

Yup, posted that video earlier. Not much use, but it's something. Noa, we'll have to agree to disagree as to light sensitivity 'tween the T2i and VG20.

Yeah Dave, it really seems as though Sony is more then content to fiddle here, waggle there, with the entire NEX lineup. Some of it seems to be done to protect the FS100 and higher models, while some of changes seem to be completely arbitrary.

In any case, it's pretty clear you can get very usable images from the entire NEX lineup at a decent price. IMO, 8 bit cameras will all soon be dead as dinosaurs, so I don't want to overspend on any of these"dying breath" cameras.

[Noa Put]

I just wanted to put things into perspective for anyone planning to purchase a nex camera, the lower nex line of camera's don't blow away any canon dslr in low light performance, they are very similar at comparable gains from my point of view as I own a 550d as well. It's only the image presets that can make quite a difference on a dslr, if I use the standard factory default presets on my dslr then my ea50 gives a brighter image, especially when I"m using the pp3 preset, but that's not the case if I use the cinestyle preset. But the ea50 gives a better image allround as it resolves more resolution and it had slightly less moire and aliasing compared to my 550d. Noise levels are the same though.

[Paul Wags]

It looks like my VG 30 is about the same as my Canon 60D in low light.

H.264 compression banding is pretty bad on the Canon's even with magic lantern setting the bitrate at CBR 50 mbps. With the AVCHD 28 mbps it's much better and I love how I can zoom in and out on the fly now.

You can access shutter, exposure, gain and WB all while looking in the VF and can also put any into auto which is great as you don't have to open the LCD door and get into the menu to make a change.

[Ron Little]

As stated above Sony is known to fiddle with the hardware and software making differences even in latter releases of the same model. That is why I am particularly interested in how the VG-30 performs nest to the EA-50 or Canon DSLRs.

[Shawn Clary]

Originally Posted by John Vincent

Yes, I have.

I'm a big Canon DSLR fan, but we'll have to agree to disagree on this particular subject. Sorry, the Canon looks grainier to my eyes at higher DB levels - even the III...

More so, I like the quality of the grain better on the Sony's. And as soon as I get that metabones speed adapter, this little puppy will practically see in the dark.

And considering the more then $2,200 difference in price between the two, if the VG20 is even close in light sensitivity to the Mark III then the 20 remains a steal.

People also want to take photographs, so yes, the $2200 difference (I bought a brand new 5dIII for $2800, so if the VG20 is $600 I agree with your pricing) is worth it. Not only do you get superior high ISO, you also get 6fps FF shooting, HDR raw in camera, 61 pt AF focusing system from the flagship 1DX, etc. The 5d3 is amazing and is probably the best hybrid stills/video camera on the market for the money. Not to mention the EF Canon line of lenses.

[Paul Wags]

The things that puts me off DSLR's for video is the horrible H.264 compression banding on solid tones (try shooting a moving dancer in front of a white wall or an interview) no smooth auto focus on the fly and of course no real time VF so shooting in the bright sunlight is just a pain unless you bolt bulky things on to it.

Here is a little clip I shot the other day @50p.
No stabilization was added in post,
Try an keep your DSLR's that smooth without having to add in stabilization during post.
I was bare feet too.

Sony NEX VG30 Glidecam HD 2000 Merlin Vest 50P Shutter Through the Rainforest on Vimeo