VG 30 & Power Zoom 18-200 mm

[Paul Rickford]

[QUOTE=Steve Mullen;1753648]These cameras have been measured by dozens of reviewers and they tend to be about 750-850 lines.Soft compared to the 1000 line EX1. If you understood single chip tek you would know why. Plus the crazy ergonomics for those who don't want dozens upon dozens of photo features and menus.

Steve
The VG10 had its faults but I have had hours of lovely clean sharp film like footage from the VG20, a very underated cam, when I purchased mine I could not find any proper tech reviews and still cant, would like some links to those dozens of reviews please

I think both the VG30 and VG900 are worthwhile 3rd generation upgrades to the VG line, the new viewfinder taken from the nex7 and now 24p as well as 25p on the pal model may sway me alone.

The VG900 interests me perhaps more, real question before I jump that needs to be answered is will the NEX APS cropped mode images out of the new 24m chip be as good or better than the current VG20 or will suffer compared to the full frame for which its geared. Interestingly Sony have not as yet released any pictures or video showing the VG900 with a NEX lens in place or use even though its a e-mount cam.

[Chris Joy]

I like the BMCC too, but ack ... that crop factor turning WA's into tele's and the battery situation. I do like 10 Prores as the native codec though. I wish Sony would dump 8-bit AVCHD for 10-bit Prores. Hopefully Blackmagic will add electronics to the m43 mount so the Panny 7-14 and all the other good native m43 glass can be fully utilized.

The search for the perfect camera continues...

[Steve Mullen]

I was talking about DSLR reviews. Their was a German VG10 review and some magazine (Videomaker?) did one too. Sony seems not to be willing to take the risk of bad reviews. I was very happy JVC sent me a GY-HMQ10.

The BMC needs some kind of rig. And, at least one fast wide zoom. But, I guess that's why I say "interesting" and a "value" rather than "it's an ENG" camcorder. I mean it would be fun to work with. Hope to get a review unit this fall.

PS: So far the "best" video I've seen comes from the JVC PX-10. SUPER detail!

[Chris Barcellos]

Steve Mullen:

Based on your recommendation, I actually bought the 5-N for more "filmic" work recently. I think you have overrated that camera, especially against the VG20.

First issue is a well noted overheating with extended recording.

Second, is if you are using an add on recorder, like BM Shuttle, I have not been able to clear the screen on HDMI out, I haven't found anyone else who has either. Do you know of a way of shutting off overlays for HDMI out?

Third, is the sound issue. While you can get a Sony Mic, there is really now way to get good sound into the camera-- unless there is some sort of adapter available for the Sony connector. Again, if you know of something, I would be interested in hearing about it. At any rate, there appear to be no controls of any sound levels. With the VG20, and and XLR adapter, while you don't have independent channel control, you can other wise import sound as well as any Sony that is now coming out with add on XLR adapters.

Fourth, the 5-n is clearly noisier in the upper ISO/Gain ranges. Now this may be due to some noise reduction employed by Sony in the VG20, but even into 30 gain, which matches Canon 5D Mark II 3200 ISO, approximately, the image is still usable. It does exhibit a grain, but it is a very fine grain.

I am astounded how you would make a recommendation of the 5-n over the VG20, without having ever shot the VG20. I have been critical of the things left out of the VG20, but it is because the camera is so good otherwise. I just wish, with your background, you had actually tried the camera out before you dumped on it. The failure to do that leaves your other recommendations suspect.

And as to lines of resolution, I have measured in my own rudimentary way similar lines of resolution that you quote. I have no doubt. But it still outdoes the EOS DLSR line (except maybe the newest cameras out) in terms of resolution. And we all know high resolution alone does not make a great camera.

I do have the Black Magic Cinema Camera on order, and I have added a BM Shuttle this week to my existing cameras to get myself ready for the new level. In just a few days, I will have a bit more idea how higher bit rates out of the VG20 HDMI feed will be, and if I can find a way to get clean video out of the 5-n, I will be testing that too.

[Steve Mullen]

Nothing wrong with the VG10 other than price. I could get the same video at a fraction of the price with the NEX-5 -- and didn't have to take the 55-200 zoom.

After writing the NEX FAMILY eBook I learned JVC was moving onto 4K and so lost interest in the NEX-line. I expected the VG20 to be a temp camera till Sony did a prosumer 4K. So why buy the VG20 since it would only last a year. Obviously, the VG30 isn't 4K but is it another year long camera? What does the VG30 offer over a used VG10 or VG20? (My NEX-5 never overheated and I saw only one report of the NEX-5n overheating.)

About resolution: Here is a perfect quote from RED on their B&W Epic, "The difference here is that instead of reading 4 pixels ( RGBG ) to interpolate ( guess ) 4 final color pixels, you are reading 4 unique, accurate imaging pixels to create 4 accurate final pixels. That is why all Bayer Pattern CMOS sensors lose effective resolution, for example our 5K cameras measure an accurate 4K resolution after Debayer, and most 1080p cameras net only an accurate 1.2-1.6k (600 to 800) image. Its an important distinction.. one of the reasons we have always touted resolution is so important, and also the reason you are now starting to see cameras that do oversampling like the F65."

In this sense, even the BMC is not fully a FullHD camera. Again, why I got interested in the 4K JVC. But, I've been working with BMC log ProRes and it is really neat -- plus a whole rig is cheaper the the JVC. So a trade to less resolution and greater DR.

PS: Will the VG900 be the first VG to go 4K? (A future VG1000?)

[Kate Spiegel]

Steve not really your eyes when you reading about it from other reviewers & not actually seeing or working with it yourself. Your emphasis was on your eyes like you had actually seen it for yourself which is misleading to say the least. Why write that instead of saying from what I read on the internet? It is very peculiar wording & the opposite of the reality of the situation. Wonder why you wrote in such a way to give a false impression without any consideration to the readers.

BTW the nex 5 is no comparison to the vg20 in lowlight artifacts. There are many other differences between these cameras & your flippant opinion is not the opinion of everyone. All these cameras shoot well in good light. It is in low light situation where the differences become more apparent.

[Chris Barcellos]

Hav e to agree with your low light analysis, Kate.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Kate Spiegel

BTW the nex 5 is no comparison to the vg20 in lowlight artifacts. There are many other differences between these cameras & your flippant opinion is not the opinion

Kate, of course the NEX-5 does not compare to the VG20 -- the VG20 is second generation. But, when I wrote my eBook I had both NEX-5 and VG10. So my EYES were used.

I've also watched just about every DSLR review and -- just like others do -- I compared with my eyes. Their measures agree with what I see and they agree with understanding HOW the cameras work. They look soft, they measure low, AS THEY MUST. Not talking about the latest very expensive DSLRs as I'm not looking at them -- although Nikon wants a review of the 800 -- so maybeI should. :)

And, as I made clear, I've moved past FullHD AVCHD camcorders. My main interest HERE is if the VG900 becomes a prosumer 4K camera and what folks think of a FF 24MP camcorder.

I also have an article for Broadcast Engineering to write on lens converters. I could use a VG30 -- hence my talking about the VG30. It seems I could use a body-only VG20.

[Steve Nunez]

Steve, I'm curious to the statement, "So far the "best" video I've seen comes from the JVC PX-10. SUPER detail!".....can you elaborate a touch on what you meant by that?

[Steve Mullen]

If there is a "film" look, there is also a "video" look. I'm thinking of 60 minutes. Every whisker and strand of hair is visible just like it would be were you looking directly at a person from a few feet away. It's called "looking through an open window."

I just looked at some fall footage shot with JVC's QuadHD. Leaves, even on distant trees were full of detail. Of course I'm seeing QHD downscaled to FHD.

THe PX10 using about the same chip -- and processing -- looks even more detailed. NOT SHARPER! MORE DETAILED -- especially when there is a mass of fine detail.

SEarch Utube for PX10 then look at the DSLR material. There is a big difference. It all depends on the look YOU like.

PS: I have not compared to Sony and Pana and Canon. They may look equally detailed.

[Chris Barcellos]

Just tested VG20 with the Shuttle 2. Work flow was 1) shot in compressed Quictime file on Shuttle 2 with camera set at 24p,
2) convert to Cineform to remove pulldown

3) Edit and add levels and sharpness in Vegas.

4) Rendered to Mainconcept MP4 for upload to Vimeo

Comments:

a.) Stobing look in corner of water close to camera was actually visible to naked eye. I wondered if camera would record it, and it did faithfully.

b.) probably added too much sharpness, which created a bit strobing on panning shot.

c.) Download file for better look.

Black Magic Shuttle Test Shots on Vimeo

[Shaun Roemich]

Originally Posted by Kate Spiegel

Steve not really your eyes when you reading about it from other reviewers & not actually seeing or working with it yourself.

Kate: this ISN'T Steve's first rodeo... I remember reading his work in Video Systems magazine back when I was fresh out of media college 14 years ago... as well, he contributes to Broadcast Engineering.

He's kind of qualified to make these statements, even if occasionally I too disagree with a point he has raised over the past 14 years.

And DVInfo is a different sort of forum where we don't attack each other. I notice you are new here and may not have yet realized this is a place for civil discussion and not calling-out.

[Noa Put]

Originally Posted by Chris Barcellos

Just tested VG20 with the Shuttle 2

That looks very good Chris, just had a look at the original file and there is quite some detail there, was this shot with the stock lens? Also is there much difference if you compare the footage that you record to the camera vs to the shuttle?

[Steve Mullen]

Wonderful video comparing 5D III with BMCC. It shows what I mean by fine detail and they use my favorite word "clarity."

Working with BMCC log 12-bit ProRes is very EZ.

ProVideo Coalition.com: TecnoTur by Allan Tépper

[Chris Barcellos]

Originally Posted by Noa Put

That looks very good Chris, just had a look at the original file and there is quite some detail there, was this shot with the stock lens? Also is there much difference if you compare the footage that you record to the camera vs to the shuttle?

Yes, stock lens. I really was just going out to test the Shuttle, and did consider running the internal capture at same time. I will give that try shortly.

What was interesting to me was that the initial capture file, shot with a 24p capture setting on my camera, when I tried viewing on my PC looks like garbage. Once I ran it through pull down, I had a very low contrast image, almost like it had come out of BMCC raw shoot. The resulting Cineform conversion definitely seemed lower in contrast, saturation, and sharpness, than I have been used to out of the VG20.

I am going to do a lot more experimenting.