Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features.

Curtis Campsall · November 16th, 2011, 09:33 AM

I'm the kind of person that doesn't really do much tweaking in camera other than exposure and white balance, but I'd like the option of matching the 5n. Is that too much to ask for a camera with the same chip and processor?

I'd been following the 5n since release, and have seen many impressive videos in the anticipation that the vg20 could do the same thing in a more comfortable video shooter form factor.

As I understand it, the 5n performs its manual settings in photo mode, and then you roll video, and your settings are preserved, with the exception of iso's over 3200.

I can understand the inclusion of a video centric menu system, simplified to controls typical of a video cam. But as it is a hybrid cam why would they not make it so you can roll video from within photo mode like any other hybrid camera including their own low end models.

I mention this because I personally would like to be able to use the vg-20 and 5n together, but if they cannot be set up to match how would this work. You'd need a cheat sheet for iso vs gain. For times you need to tweak settings, your 'toy' cam would become the A-cam, how silly is that.

I'm still in wait and see mode, as there is no real substitute on the market yet. I don't shoot enough to pay down a pro level product. I want a large chip video cam that shoots 24p, has mic and head phone, a screen that shows what you'll get with zebras before you roll. No dslr has this, and panasonic and canon have not released anything yet.

John Vincent · November 16th, 2011, 01:03 PM

"H. Paul Moon locked this topic on Nov 15, 2011 because - This has gotten out of hand, really for the first time in over a year that this forum has existed. And really, the chatter is originating from a mere trio, among the over 1k participants here and at the hybrid group.

There is no inconsistency whatsoever between the published manual and the included features. There were minor misprints on NEX-VG20 feature lists from Sony marketing that have been, already are, or will be corrected.

However, the majority of features alleged to be missing were never, ever intended for video mode -- and in the year of discussion about the NEX-VG10, no one ever got confused about this. So, e.g., there is no DRO or HDR mode during video shooting, because that's obviously a technology which involves shooting consecutive still photographs. Just one example."

Censorship always stings, esp when it's totally unwarranted. Obviously the omission of those features isn't minor, nor are they features meant only for still shooting (they're available on every other modern $500 plus camera, including Sony's own 5n/VG10). I defended you Chris, as well as this forum, when he threw you under the bus.

I believe Moon works for Sony - he had access to clips long before anyone else did at any extent, and he seems hyper sensitive to even the slightest negative comment about Sony. If he does work for Sony, it's yet another bit of anti-consumer friendly behavior from a company already notorious for such action.

This has really soured me on Sony. Bad enough to cripple a long awaited camera, and bad enough to falsely advertise it - but to bad mouth well meaning and justifiably concerned customers - as well as this forum - is going too far.

I've done so already Chris, but thank you again for all the hard work you've put in on this. You've saved many people a great deal of disappointment.

Dave Blackhurst · November 16th, 2011, 02:15 PM

I don't think there's any excessive negativity towards Sony... it's fair to discuss why a $700 camera has certain features that, while the camera is oriented towards "stills", also can translate to the cameras video modes, and a $2700 camera with the same tech under the hood lacks those same potentially useful features!

I think it will become even tougher when the NEX 7 becomes readily available. VG10's are already selling pretty cheap, almost worth it to pick one up for the 18-200 lens... the VG's are a very "niche" oriented design, and as such Sony should be ADDING as many features as possible to make the product more attractive, rather than deleting features that a camera that costs far less INCLUDES.

I don't think there's been any unfairness here, aside from perhaps some misunderstanding over DRO/HDR... understandable if you aren't familiiar with "crossover" cameras and Sony designs.

The question remains the same - if the internal hardware has the capabilities, which I strongly suspect it does, why keep the user from the ability to use the camera to its fullest? Update the firmware to match the capablities of the 5n and leave it to that...

I still am leaning towards the NEX 7, or If I stumble onto a cheap 5n... smaller, lighter, and gee whiz, more features enabled, all at a more affordable price... I'm pretty much just as comfortable with the NEX form factor as with a "traditional video camera".

I can't see how the VG20 justifies its price point, any more than the VG10 did (and in the secondary market you already see it selling at a big discount... more in line with bang/$ ratio). Still, it is a very "sexy" looking camera...

Chris Barcellos · November 16th, 2011, 02:39 PM

Hi John:

Yeah followed it, and thanks for sticking up for us there. I think your were probably considered one of the trio. I did take him to task for what he said about DVInfo. But it got pulled. I guess I should have saved it.

In a knee jerk reaction, I started my own VG20 Film Makers Forum there on Vimeo:

Sony NEX VG20 Film Makers on Vimeo

I do like this camera in a whole lot of ways, and I guess that means I will be keeping it, despite the flaw.

John Vincent · November 16th, 2011, 04:15 PM

Chris - is it the ease of use (vs the Mark II) or the picture quality which has you sold?

The two cameras seem very close in terms of video quality (judging by your footage from both) - bottom line quesiton - do you think it's worth the $1,600 as an upgrade over the current Canon DSLR lineup or to someone who might be mulling over buying one vs the other?

Curtis Campsall · November 16th, 2011, 05:33 PM

I just want the camera that is advertised by sony, not the one they delivered. I'm not confused by features that are only possible in photo mode.

The 'Sony Style' spec sheet clearly identifies specific features that are photo mode only, leaving to assume that everything else is available to video mode. Color palate picture styles and white balances that include fluorescent and shady are not unreasonable expectations on a top of the line unit. My 4 year old canon hv20 has all those white balance settings, and I can tell you that they are quite handy, you don't always have a white card in your pocket.

Style wise it is quite sexy and I can see it being sold to low end wedding/event shooters that can't afford the FS-100. It is much nicer than those cheezy shoulder cams they make.

Jeff Hinson · November 16th, 2011, 06:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Curtis Campsall

I mention this because I personally would like to be able to use the vg-20 and 5n together, but if they cannot be set up to match how would this work. You'd need a cheat sheet for iso vs gain. For times you need to tweak settings, your 'toy' cam would become the A-cam, how silly is that.
.

______________________________________________________________________________________

Im exactly in the same position. I own a NEX 5N, and was eagerly awaiting the VG20 so I could match the two "videos" without having to go through extensive CC. I currently use the 5N and a Canon XHA1. It's a pain to CC one to match the other. The A1 makes great video, but I was looking forward to getting rid of the "weight,tape,and DOF limitations".

Im seriously thinking about getting a VG10. I will wait a while to see if the VG20 gets the firmware update. Although I doubt that will happen.

Jeff

Chris Barcellos · November 17th, 2011, 11:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Vincent

Chris - is it the ease of use (vs the Mark II) or the picture quality which has you sold?

The two cameras seem very close in terms of video quality (judging by your footage from both) - bottom line quesiton - do you think it's worth the $1,600 as an upgrade over the current Canon DSLR lineup or to someone who might be mulling over buying one vs the other?

I believe the image is actually better that the 5D in terms of potential for noise and aliasing/moire. What bothers a lot of people is that the bitrate of the 5D at 38 mbs v. Sony at 24 mbs may leave something to be desired. However, I think a lot has to do with how efficient the codec has been programmed. I still haven't done enough color correction work to be fair about it, but I am liking what I see so far, and I am willing to work with the camera at this point. I just think it has a lot of potential. And it is so much easier to use in terms of what we normally expect from a video camera. Pluses over 5 D Mark II include autofocus when needed, zebras, cleaner grain, quick custom white balancing, electronic viewfinder when handheld, swivel lcd, etc. Biggest negative, less control of settings.

Joel Crawford · November 24th, 2011, 08:54 AM

Hi All,

I new here, so first a very quick intro. I've been a serious still photographer since 1965 (Nikon rules). I only got into video last year. I bought a VG10 in December and have to say that, after a difficult start, I love the camera. I have a number of early efforts here:

http://www.youtube.com/user/CarfreeCities?feature=mhee

and here:

http://vimeo.com/jhcrawford/videos

all shot with the VG10.

I'm cautious about "missing features," because it took me months to discover how many things were actually possible with the VG10. I cam to tolerate the user interface pretty well and eventually found that I could get pretty good results in full auto mode, which allowed me to concentrate on getting footage. I have also learned that some things are better shot in manual, which is difficult with the VG10.

The paper manual included with the VG20 is simply awful and in places incomprehensible. The longer on-line PDF is actually not bad and cleared up a couple of points.

I have now had TWO VG20's in my hands. The first one went back after a few days, and I've only had the second one for a few days. The reason for the return of the first one was that the touch screen didn't seem to work properly. The second one works better, but I have learned that it's not a touch-sensitive screen but a pressure-sensitive screen. Still, the screen in both cameras seemed to wobble more than it should when pressed.

The menu chain feels very clumsy to me and requires many presses to do anything, and then usually takes me farther away from where I was than I wanted to be once I'm done with one function (and wanting to adjust another near by).

As an example of "missing features," I first thought that the VG20 had no way to adjust auto-focus mode. Then I discovered that the Focus button is not a "focus now" button as I had thought but a way to control focus mode. So, problem solved. How many more of my problems will vanish as easily?

I would prefer to run the camera with the display screen folded up but only today realized that you can fold it up with the touch screen facing OUT.

I am starting to shoot mostly black & white, which the VG10 can do from the menu. I have a hunch that, as long as the camera does not have to record chroma data, it can output a higher-quality stream of video (or else a longer shooting time per card at the same quality). Yes, you can change it in Vegas, which is what I've been doing on the latest video, and that seems to work fine.

So, I may return the second camera for want of some features found on the VG10, but my bigger complaint at the moment is the ergonomics of the camer and all the missing buttons that served so well on the VG10.

It's a very odd situation. I think that speculation that Sony is a bit stunned in the wake of this year's disasters may be right on the money.

In any case, glad to be here and look forward to the disucsion. I'll try to be much briefer in the future.

Joel Crawford · November 25th, 2011, 04:45 PM

I was out shooting with the VG20 today and had the shutter speed on the manual dial. The sound often seems to cut out completely when I'm adjusting the shutter.

I'm starting to conclude that this camera is at best a beta release, and it really does not seem to be ready for prime time.

Later, I took the VG10 into New York and got some excellent footage without any of the problems with the VG20. Why, I am asking myself, would I pay $1600 for this much trouble?

November 16th, 2011, 09:33 AM	#31
Curtis Campsall New Boot Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Seeleys Bay, ON Posts: 12	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. I'm the kind of person that doesn't really do much tweaking in camera other than exposure and white balance, but I'd like the option of matching the 5n. Is that too much to ask for a camera with the same chip and processor? I'd been following the 5n since release, and have seen many impressive videos in the anticipation that the vg20 could do the same thing in a more comfortable video shooter form factor. As I understand it, the 5n performs its manual settings in photo mode, and then you roll video, and your settings are preserved, with the exception of iso's over 3200. I can understand the inclusion of a video centric menu system, simplified to controls typical of a video cam. But as it is a hybrid cam why would they not make it so you can roll video from within photo mode like any other hybrid camera including their own low end models. I mention this because I personally would like to be able to use the vg-20 and 5n together, but if they cannot be set up to match how would this work. You'd need a cheat sheet for iso vs gain. For times you need to tweak settings, your 'toy' cam would become the A-cam, how silly is that. I'm still in wait and see mode, as there is no real substitute on the market yet. I don't shoot enough to pay down a pro level product. I want a large chip video cam that shoots 24p, has mic and head phone, a screen that shows what you'll get with zebras before you roll. No dslr has this, and panasonic and canon have not released anything yet.

November 16th, 2011, 01:03 PM	#32
John Vincent Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,065	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. "H. Paul Moon locked this topic on Nov 15, 2011 because - This has gotten out of hand, really for the first time in over a year that this forum has existed. And really, the chatter is originating from a mere trio, among the over 1k participants here and at the hybrid group. There is no inconsistency whatsoever between the published manual and the included features. There were minor misprints on NEX-VG20 feature lists from Sony marketing that have been, already are, or will be corrected. However, the majority of features alleged to be missing were never, ever intended for video mode -- and in the year of discussion about the NEX-VG10, no one ever got confused about this. So, e.g., there is no DRO or HDR mode during video shooting, because that's obviously a technology which involves shooting consecutive still photographs. Just one example." Censorship always stings, esp when it's totally unwarranted. Obviously the omission of those features isn't minor, nor are they features meant only for still shooting (they're available on every other modern $500 plus camera, including Sony's own 5n/VG10). I defended you Chris, as well as this forum, when he threw you under the bus. I believe Moon works for Sony - he had access to clips long before anyone else did at any extent, and he seems hyper sensitive to even the slightest negative comment about Sony. If he does work for Sony, it's yet another bit of anti-consumer friendly behavior from a company already notorious for such action. This has really soured me on Sony. Bad enough to cripple a long awaited camera, and bad enough to falsely advertise it - but to bad mouth well meaning and justifiably concerned customers - as well as this forum - is going too far. I've done so already Chris, but thank you again for all the hard work you've put in on this. You've saved many people a great deal of disappointment.

November 16th, 2011, 02:15 PM	#33
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. I don't think there's any excessive negativity towards Sony... it's fair to discuss why a $700 camera has certain features that, while the camera is oriented towards "stills", also can translate to the cameras video modes, and a $2700 camera with the same tech under the hood lacks those same potentially useful features! I think it will become even tougher when the NEX 7 becomes readily available. VG10's are already selling pretty cheap, almost worth it to pick one up for the 18-200 lens... the VG's are a very "niche" oriented design, and as such Sony should be ADDING as many features as possible to make the product more attractive, rather than deleting features that a camera that costs far less INCLUDES. I don't think there's been any unfairness here, aside from perhaps some misunderstanding over DRO/HDR... understandable if you aren't familiiar with "crossover" cameras and Sony designs. The question remains the same - if the internal hardware has the capabilities, which I strongly suspect it does, why keep the user from the ability to use the camera to its fullest? Update the firmware to match the capablities of the 5n and leave it to that... I still am leaning towards the NEX 7, or If I stumble onto a cheap 5n... smaller, lighter, and gee whiz, more features enabled, all at a more affordable price... I'm pretty much just as comfortable with the NEX form factor as with a "traditional video camera". I can't see how the VG20 justifies its price point, any more than the VG10 did (and in the secondary market you already see it selling at a big discount... more in line with bang/$ ratio). Still, it is a very "sexy" looking camera...

November 16th, 2011, 02:39 PM	#34
Chris Barcellos Inner Circle Join Date: Nov 2005 Location: Elk Grove CA Posts: 6,838	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. Hi John: Yeah followed it, and thanks for sticking up for us there. I think your were probably considered one of the trio. I did take him to task for what he said about DVInfo. But it got pulled. I guess I should have saved it. In a knee jerk reaction, I started my own VG20 Film Makers Forum there on Vimeo: Sony NEX VG20 Film Makers on Vimeo I do like this camera in a whole lot of ways, and I guess that means I will be keeping it, despite the flaw. __________________ Chris J. Barcellos

November 16th, 2011, 04:15 PM	#35
John Vincent Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,065	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. Chris - is it the ease of use (vs the Mark II) or the picture quality which has you sold? The two cameras seem very close in terms of video quality (judging by your footage from both) - bottom line quesiton - do you think it's worth the $1,600 as an upgrade over the current Canon DSLR lineup or to someone who might be mulling over buying one vs the other?

November 16th, 2011, 05:33 PM	#36
Curtis Campsall New Boot Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Seeleys Bay, ON Posts: 12	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. I just want the camera that is advertised by sony, not the one they delivered. I'm not confused by features that are only possible in photo mode. The 'Sony Style' spec sheet clearly identifies specific features that are photo mode only, leaving to assume that everything else is available to video mode. Color palate picture styles and white balances that include fluorescent and shady are not unreasonable expectations on a top of the line unit. My 4 year old canon hv20 has all those white balance settings, and I can tell you that they are quite handy, you don't always have a white card in your pocket. Style wise it is quite sexy and I can see it being sold to low end wedding/event shooters that can't afford the FS-100. It is much nicer than those cheezy shoulder cams they make.

November 24th, 2011, 08:54 AM	#39
Joel Crawford Tourist Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Summit, NJ Posts: 4	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. Hi All, I new here, so first a very quick intro. I've been a serious still photographer since 1965 (Nikon rules). I only got into video last year. I bought a VG10 in December and have to say that, after a difficult start, I love the camera. I have a number of early efforts here: http://www.youtube.com/user/CarfreeCities?feature=mhee and here: http://vimeo.com/jhcrawford/videos all shot with the VG10. I'm cautious about "missing features," because it took me months to discover how many things were actually possible with the VG10. I cam to tolerate the user interface pretty well and eventually found that I could get pretty good results in full auto mode, which allowed me to concentrate on getting footage. I have also learned that some things are better shot in manual, which is difficult with the VG10. The paper manual included with the VG20 is simply awful and in places incomprehensible. The longer on-line PDF is actually not bad and cleared up a couple of points. I have now had TWO VG20's in my hands. The first one went back after a few days, and I've only had the second one for a few days. The reason for the return of the first one was that the touch screen didn't seem to work properly. The second one works better, but I have learned that it's not a touch-sensitive screen but a pressure-sensitive screen. Still, the screen in both cameras seemed to wobble more than it should when pressed. The menu chain feels very clumsy to me and requires many presses to do anything, and then usually takes me farther away from where I was than I wanted to be once I'm done with one function (and wanting to adjust another near by). As an example of "missing features," I first thought that the VG20 had no way to adjust auto-focus mode. Then I discovered that the Focus button is not a "focus now" button as I had thought but a way to control focus mode. So, problem solved. How many more of my problems will vanish as easily? I would prefer to run the camera with the display screen folded up but only today realized that you can fold it up with the touch screen facing OUT. I am starting to shoot mostly black & white, which the VG10 can do from the menu. I have a hunch that, as long as the camera does not have to record chroma data, it can output a higher-quality stream of video (or else a longer shooting time per card at the same quality). Yes, you can change it in Vegas, which is what I've been doing on the latest video, and that seems to work fine. So, I may return the second camera for want of some features found on the VG10, but my bigger complaint at the moment is the ergonomics of the camer and all the missing buttons that served so well on the VG10. It's a very odd situation. I think that speculation that Sony is a bit stunned in the wake of this year's disasters may be right on the money. In any case, glad to be here and look forward to the disucsion. I'll try to be much briefer in the future. Last edited by Joel Crawford; November 24th, 2011 at 08:55 AM. Reason: slight improvement in clarity

November 25th, 2011, 04:45 PM	#40
Joel Crawford Tourist Join Date: Nov 2011 Location: Summit, NJ Posts: 4	Re: Buyers Beware: Sonys Nex VG20H does not have advertised features. I was out shooting with the VG20 today and had the shutter speed on the manual dial. The sound often seems to cut out completely when I'm adjusting the shutter. I'm starting to conclude that this camera is at best a beta release, and it really does not seem to be ready for prime time. Later, I took the VG10 into New York and got some excellent footage without any of the problems with the VG20. Why, I am asking myself, would I pay $1600 for this much trouble?