I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20

John Vincent · September 19th, 2011, 02:55 PM

Totally agree about pricing - I've said for some time now that both the AF100 and FS100 were over priced by at least $1,000, the AF100 maybe by $1,500. That pricing disparity will only grow when the VG20 and Canon camera(s) hit the market. Now, the price has already dropped about a grand on the AF100, but that's not nearly enough.

Far as buying the AF100, I've read so many threads where new owners were disappointed in the image that I long ago ruled out the cam. Seriously, the AF100 forum at another site is more or less as happy as a morgue - and it has been for a long time (even more so now that the FS100 came out). Experienced shooters almost to a man have moved to the FS100, although yes, these guys can get a usable image from the AF100. AF100's a very unforgiving camera, despite it's larger tool set (XLRs, built-in ND filters).

When you add to that the 4/3's format, no thanks. Yes, I know it's bigger than a 1/3 inch sensor. No, I'm not impressed. And yes, I know the AF100 has a built ND filter. By God has Panny tried beating would be buyers to death with that one. You know what Hollywood shooters use? Matteboxes.

If the AF100 were $2,500 brand new w/lens, then you'd have to take a close look at it. But, I'll bet a buck that the VG20 will look at least as clean in low light, and maybe better. VG20 will prolly handle highlights better. Prolly worse at moire, equal in jello.

Point being, even if the AF100 was half the price, I'd still have to think twice about it, given the VG20 and soon to-be-announced "historic" cam from Canon.

Dave Blackhurst · September 19th, 2011, 03:22 PM

Typical proprietary "interface" in the NEX5/5n for the mic/flash. Doesn't count as an "input" in my book, until someone hacks it or Sony makes a module available to take advantage of the "feature".

Heat and battery life will probably remain as concerns in the NEX cameras - they really aren't designed for long clip event type work - that's what video cams are for <wink>. It's the potential for a small, manual control, image acquisition device that's in play with these. With a large enough chip to get some decent DoF. Conceptually, was part of the motivation for picking up an a55 (that and needed a decent stills upgrade). Of course, short battery life, overheating, and no manual controls on "1st generation" have me considering the possible upgrades already... fudge.

Steve Mullen · September 19th, 2011, 07:09 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John Vincent

... and soon to-be-announced "historic" cam from Canon.

Is that a joke or a rumor?

The tests I saw of the FS100 verses the AF100 showed zero difference -- or not enough for me too care. Good enough is good enough for 90% of today's work. I mean is a client really likely not to pay for HD shot with an AF100 or any modern HD $5000 camcorder. EZ to use is most important to me. I just want a old-fashioned camcorder with a big chip -- for cheap.

Glen Vandermolen · September 19th, 2011, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Is that a joke or a rumor?

The tests I saw of the FS100 verses the AF100 showed zero difference -- or not enough for me too care. Good enough is good enough for 90% of today's work. I mean is a client really likely not to pay for HD shot with an AF100 or any modern HD $5000 camcorder. EZ to use is most important to me. I just want a old-fashioned camcorder with a big chip -- for cheap.

It's a rumor. Canon is having a big announcement in Hollywood on Nov. 3rd. Everybody's going nuts wondering what it could be. Some have already come to the conclusion that it's a new big-chip Canon video camera. There is NO evidence to suggest it is - none. It's all mindless speculation. There's several forum threads devoted to the rumor, and frankly, I'm tired of reading all the wild guesses.

As far as a cheap big-chip camera, there's always the DSLRs. Or the VG10/20. Or the AF100 and FS100 - it depends on what your definition of cheap is.

John Vincent · September 19th, 2011, 08:48 PM

It's neither a joke or a rumor - as Glen pointed out, Canon's sent out invitations for an "historic" event on a back lot in Hollywood - hardly the way to intro a new printer. Chris seems to believe it's a camera and for a man who seems pretty set against rumor spreading, that's enough for me.

More to the point, Canon's DSLR lineup is getting long in the tooth - it's been 3 years since the Mark II "shocked the world" so to speak, and it's only a matter of months before there's some news on that front (and if not for the disaster in Japan, it would probably already happened).

Canon's main competitors, Sony and Panny, have both released large chip "true" video cameras in 2011 w/ switchable lenses. In fact, by the end of the year, Sony will have released 3. Canon has nothing at this point to even remotely compete with them in those terms. Add to that the various still cams from Panny and Sony - all of which make very nice videos - and it's clear that it's Canon's turn to respond. Worse for Canon, those cameras are selling like hotcakes.

So while the exact specs or type of camera might by up to speculation, the fact that some new large chip camera being announced in a month and a half by Canon is all but a fait d'accomplit. And I suspect more announcements will follow - likely leading up to the Mark III announcement (based primarily on recent Canonrumor postings).

So unless you have to have a camera right now, why not wait a month and a half? You'll have to wait at least that long before the VG20 hits shelves in any case.

John McCully · September 20th, 2011, 03:11 AM

Thanks a million, folks, for the conversation. I have found this most helpful. And as a result here is my current thinking, for what it’s worth. Please feel free to comment.

There is no one camera for everything any more especially for people like me who shoot a wide range of subject matter. Of course I have an EX1 which while a few years old remains about as good as it gets for what it does, and for certain shooting, quite a lot actually, that will continue to be my choice. At the other end of the scale I have an HX100v which I imagine very few of you have ever heard of let alone shot with. It is a wonderful walk around bridge camera for shooting photographs where the 30x lens comes in handy and the full HD 60p video is remarkably good. If shooting test charts was my thing then this camera would not be in my kit bag. But for shooting wildlife on a budget it is hard to beat. And for photographs destined for web publishing there is none more popular and for good reason.

I will use the CX700v for two-camera interviews with the EX1 as the 60p footage sits well on the time line with the 30p off the EX1. I shall also use it for run and gun shooting, excellent imagine stabilization, where I need everything to be in focus and artistic DoF is not front and centre.

For DoF including hand-held shooting situations, the subject of this thread, I have zeroed in on three candidates: the NEX 7, the A77 and the VG 20. None of these are available yet as you know but they all look promising based on the available information. Initially I shall purchase the 18 55 and the 18 200 OSS lenses which will be just fine with any of the three cams; not perfect but just fine.

As we speak based on what I understand I’m leaning towards the VG 20 not because of image quality (I’m guessing they will all pass muster in that regard) but because of functionality and ergonomics, not quite as light as the NEX 7 but less than half the weight of the FS100 and the EX1 with the 18 200 lens attached, and I can live with that.

That should do it, for now, and for the foreseeable future.

I just know if I get the VG 20 I’m going to desire, yes desire, a NEX 7 too just because it looks sooo lovely. Damn.

Thanks again.

Dave Blackhurst · September 20th, 2011, 11:25 AM

Hi John -
You don't say if you've got any legacy "A" mount glass to come into the equation (I do, so that's where the A65/A77 are in my "possible" list). BUT, if you don't have any already, keep in mind that the "E" mount is quite entirely different than the "A" mount - the "A" and mnay other lenses can be adapted to the "E" mount due to the short flange distance inherent in the design, but if you go to the A77, it's "A" mount lenses.

As soon as you go "interchangeable lens", the lenses start to come into play in the decision making equation, as they SHOULD outlast the bodies (lots of NEX5 bodies of late on eBay!). It's the nice old Minolta glass I've collected on the cheap (A mount) that keeps me from getting "too" excited about the "E" mount stuff, but that NEX7 sure does look interesting!

FWIW, I've got a similar "mix" of video capable cameras, including the Sony P&S cams with the "small" 16Mpixel sensor, very capable for what they are and do! If they shoot good video, why not use 'em!

John McCully · September 20th, 2011, 03:02 PM

I have no legacy lenses, Dave, as when I retired, the year 2000, my camera kit was returned to the company and that’s when I took off for central Mexico with a little digital 3 megapixel Canon. And my current location here in New Zealand is not conducive to lens hunting, nor am I in the least predisposed in that direction.

I hear you regarding the lens outlasting the body but my aging body won’t last forever either so that’s somewhat of a moot point in my situation.

I do find it amusing that while I get plenty of comments both positive and sometimes not so positive regarding composition, content, style and so on not once has anyone commented ‘that footage in there is obviously shot with a toy consumer camera; what rubbish’ or anything remotely like that. I totally agree with you; why not use all the tools in the bag as appropriate and not get hung up on the gear. Now, having said that no doubt if one has a contract with Ferrari, or Vogue Mag and you show up with a CX700v then eyebrows might well be raised, but that’s not what I do (though I wouldn’t mind having a go if I was invited ha ha).

In the ‘Great camera Shootout 2011 Episode 1' a comment by Don McAlpine, ACS/ASC, Cinematographer, struck me as being highly relevant. He said, speaking about the camera and the film stock you use, ‘it’s a fraction of a percent of where you’re going…’ Right on Sir; how true. Keeping that in perspective is so important.

Camera lust (like me and the NEX 7) must be controlled and lens lust, as I observe here and there, is downright sinful, I reckon.

All good fun...

John Vincent · September 21st, 2011, 10:00 AM

And now RED will announce something Nov 3rd as well....
http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...nov-3rd-8.html

Much as I'm interested in the VG20, I'll be waiting on any orders until at least Nov. 4th.

Steve Mullen · September 21st, 2011, 09:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

Personally I'm waiting to see the NEX7 reviews

I read a review that the 24Mp chip is great for photos BUT it offers a stop less sensitivity than the NEX-5n which is likely the same as the VG20. So, if correct, we can forgot the NEX-7.

The lower sensitivity makes sense given the jump from 16MP to 24MP in the same size chip.

I wonder if the VG20 is more sensitive than the VG10. The one big positive of the FS100 is 2 stops greater sensitivity which would be exactly what the VG20 needs IF you want to use a zoom -- which I do.

Paul Newman · October 14th, 2011, 02:44 AM

I think I read that the VG10 has min illumination of 11 lux at F3.5 at shutter of 1/25 and the VG20 9 lux(1/50 Shutter Speed F3.5)

Paul

Bill Bruner · October 14th, 2011, 04:39 AM

Paul - I think you're right for the European model -- the VG20 EU press release says the VG20 is 9 lux at 1/50 shutter.

Couldn't get on the Sony USA site this morning because it is down for maintenance, but a side-by-side of the VG10/VG20 specs on Adorama shows slightly different shutter speed numbers for the US models:

VG10 minimum illumination: 11 lux (Shutter speed: 1/30 sec, Iris: F3.5, Gain: Auto)

VG20 minimum illumination: 9 lux (Shutter speed: 1/60 sec, Iris: F3.5, Gain: Auto)

Cheers,

Bill
Hybrid Camera Revolution

Dave Blackhurst · October 14th, 2011, 12:22 PM

Sony typically improves performance as they progress (I say typically, as sometimes there are some "steps backwards"...). One of the areas they are very conscious of is "low light" shooting. They've had more "tweak time" with the 16Mpix chip, so I'd expect it to be "better", but so for the 24Mpix chip in the NEX7/A77 looks pretty good.

After finally getting hands on with a HX100V (too bad they didn't enable more manual control while shooting video!), I'm really leaning towards the physical design of the NEX7 - I can add a small flash bracket/grip to the left side, all the controls will be pretty much at my thumb tip, and aside from having to collect some new glass in "E" mount, it would make for a pretty comfortable cam to shoot, at least for me.

John McCully · October 15th, 2011, 01:47 AM

I’m also leaning towards the NEX 7 as you are Dave. That 24 megapixel sensor is looking good and the size/form factor is most appealing. Its place in my kit will be for DoF shooting, mostly outdoors, and for high quality stills. If I didn’t have other cameras the NEX VG 20 would make more sense perhaps. And given the E-mount lens line is rapidly expanding, apparently, purchasing a NEX VG 20 body later is a solid option.

What lenses are you looking to obtain, may I ask?

Dave Blackhurst · October 15th, 2011, 01:14 PM

The stock 18-55 for starters to see if the camera resonates with me as I expect... then I might look into the adapter as I've got plenty of what I regard as "nice" "A" mount glass and don't particularly want to recreate the collection... main thing is all these 20+ year old lenses are built like tanks in comparison, so will be "lens heavy" in any configuration! Already noticing it with the A55/Minolta 24-105(D) combo...

If I go this direction, it would be a "supplemental" camera, likely replacing an "A" mount camera, with the video as a strong bonus - the A series seem OK for video, but manual controls would be nice, and I'm always happy with smaller/lighter.

September 19th, 2011, 02:55 PM	#16
John Vincent Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,065	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 Totally agree about pricing - I've said for some time now that both the AF100 and FS100 were over priced by at least $1,000, the AF100 maybe by $1,500. That pricing disparity will only grow when the VG20 and Canon camera(s) hit the market. Now, the price has already dropped about a grand on the AF100, but that's not nearly enough. Far as buying the AF100, I've read so many threads where new owners were disappointed in the image that I long ago ruled out the cam. Seriously, the AF100 forum at another site is more or less as happy as a morgue - and it has been for a long time (even more so now that the FS100 came out). Experienced shooters almost to a man have moved to the FS100, although yes, these guys can get a usable image from the AF100. AF100's a very unforgiving camera, despite it's larger tool set (XLRs, built-in ND filters). When you add to that the 4/3's format, no thanks. Yes, I know it's bigger than a 1/3 inch sensor. No, I'm not impressed. And yes, I know the AF100 has a built ND filter. By God has Panny tried beating would be buyers to death with that one. You know what Hollywood shooters use? Matteboxes. If the AF100 were $2,500 brand new w/lens, then you'd have to take a close look at it. But, I'll bet a buck that the VG20 will look at least as clean in low light, and maybe better. VG20 will prolly handle highlights better. Prolly worse at moire, equal in jello. Point being, even if the AF100 was half the price, I'd still have to think twice about it, given the VG20 and soon to-be-announced "historic" cam from Canon.

September 19th, 2011, 03:22 PM	#17
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 Typical proprietary "interface" in the NEX5/5n for the mic/flash. Doesn't count as an "input" in my book, until someone hacks it or Sony makes a module available to take advantage of the "feature". Heat and battery life will probably remain as concerns in the NEX cameras - they really aren't designed for long clip event type work - that's what video cams are for <wink>. It's the potential for a small, manual control, image acquisition device that's in play with these. With a large enough chip to get some decent DoF. Conceptually, was part of the motivation for picking up an a55 (that and needed a decent stills upgrade). Of course, short battery life, overheating, and no manual controls on "1st generation" have me considering the possible upgrades already... fudge.

September 19th, 2011, 08:48 PM	#20
John Vincent Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,065	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 It's neither a joke or a rumor - as Glen pointed out, Canon's sent out invitations for an "historic" event on a back lot in Hollywood - hardly the way to intro a new printer. Chris seems to believe it's a camera and for a man who seems pretty set against rumor spreading, that's enough for me. More to the point, Canon's DSLR lineup is getting long in the tooth - it's been 3 years since the Mark II "shocked the world" so to speak, and it's only a matter of months before there's some news on that front (and if not for the disaster in Japan, it would probably already happened). Canon's main competitors, Sony and Panny, have both released large chip "true" video cameras in 2011 w/ switchable lenses. In fact, by the end of the year, Sony will have released 3. Canon has nothing at this point to even remotely compete with them in those terms. Add to that the various still cams from Panny and Sony - all of which make very nice videos - and it's clear that it's Canon's turn to respond. Worse for Canon, those cameras are selling like hotcakes. So while the exact specs or type of camera might by up to speculation, the fact that some new large chip camera being announced in a month and a half by Canon is all but a fait d'accomplit. And I suspect more announcements will follow - likely leading up to the Mark III announcement (based primarily on recent Canonrumor postings). So unless you have to have a camera right now, why not wait a month and a half? You'll have to wait at least that long before the VG20 hits shelves in any case.

September 20th, 2011, 03:11 AM	#21
John McCully Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Island, New Zealand Posts: 609 Images: 2	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 Thanks a million, folks, for the conversation. I have found this most helpful. And as a result here is my current thinking, for what it’s worth. Please feel free to comment. There is no one camera for everything any more especially for people like me who shoot a wide range of subject matter. Of course I have an EX1 which while a few years old remains about as good as it gets for what it does, and for certain shooting, quite a lot actually, that will continue to be my choice. At the other end of the scale I have an HX100v which I imagine very few of you have ever heard of let alone shot with. It is a wonderful walk around bridge camera for shooting photographs where the 30x lens comes in handy and the full HD 60p video is remarkably good. If shooting test charts was my thing then this camera would not be in my kit bag. But for shooting wildlife on a budget it is hard to beat. And for photographs destined for web publishing there is none more popular and for good reason. I will use the CX700v for two-camera interviews with the EX1 as the 60p footage sits well on the time line with the 30p off the EX1. I shall also use it for run and gun shooting, excellent imagine stabilization, where I need everything to be in focus and artistic DoF is not front and centre. For DoF including hand-held shooting situations, the subject of this thread, I have zeroed in on three candidates: the NEX 7, the A77 and the VG 20. None of these are available yet as you know but they all look promising based on the available information. Initially I shall purchase the 18 55 and the 18 200 OSS lenses which will be just fine with any of the three cams; not perfect but just fine. As we speak based on what I understand I’m leaning towards the VG 20 not because of image quality (I’m guessing they will all pass muster in that regard) but because of functionality and ergonomics, not quite as light as the NEX 7 but less than half the weight of the FS100 and the EX1 with the 18 200 lens attached, and I can live with that. That should do it, for now, and for the foreseeable future. I just know if I get the VG 20 I’m going to desire, yes desire, a NEX 7 too just because it looks sooo lovely. Damn. Thanks again.

September 20th, 2011, 11:25 AM	#22
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 Hi John - You don't say if you've got any legacy "A" mount glass to come into the equation (I do, so that's where the A65/A77 are in my "possible" list). BUT, if you don't have any already, keep in mind that the "E" mount is quite entirely different than the "A" mount - the "A" and mnay other lenses can be adapted to the "E" mount due to the short flange distance inherent in the design, but if you go to the A77, it's "A" mount lenses. As soon as you go "interchangeable lens", the lenses start to come into play in the decision making equation, as they SHOULD outlast the bodies (lots of NEX5 bodies of late on eBay!). It's the nice old Minolta glass I've collected on the cheap (A mount) that keeps me from getting "too" excited about the "E" mount stuff, but that NEX7 sure does look interesting! FWIW, I've got a similar "mix" of video capable cameras, including the Sony P&S cams with the "small" 16Mpixel sensor, very capable for what they are and do! If they shoot good video, why not use 'em!

September 20th, 2011, 03:02 PM	#23
John McCully Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Island, New Zealand Posts: 609 Images: 2	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 I have no legacy lenses, Dave, as when I retired, the year 2000, my camera kit was returned to the company and that’s when I took off for central Mexico with a little digital 3 megapixel Canon. And my current location here in New Zealand is not conducive to lens hunting, nor am I in the least predisposed in that direction. I hear you regarding the lens outlasting the body but my aging body won’t last forever either so that’s somewhat of a moot point in my situation. I do find it amusing that while I get plenty of comments both positive and sometimes not so positive regarding composition, content, style and so on not once has anyone commented ‘that footage in there is obviously shot with a toy consumer camera; what rubbish’ or anything remotely like that. I totally agree with you; why not use all the tools in the bag as appropriate and not get hung up on the gear. Now, having said that no doubt if one has a contract with Ferrari, or Vogue Mag and you show up with a CX700v then eyebrows might well be raised, but that’s not what I do (though I wouldn’t mind having a go if I was invited ha ha). In the ‘Great camera Shootout 2011 Episode 1' a comment by Don McAlpine, ACS/ASC, Cinematographer, struck me as being highly relevant. He said, speaking about the camera and the film stock you use, ‘it’s a fraction of a percent of where you’re going…’ Right on Sir; how true. Keeping that in perspective is so important. Camera lust (like me and the NEX 7) must be controlled and lens lust, as I observe here and there, is downright sinful, I reckon. All good fun...

September 21st, 2011, 10:00 AM	#24
John Vincent Trustee Join Date: Sep 2005 Posts: 1,065	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 And now RED will announce something Nov 3rd as well.... http://www.dvinfo.net/forum/digital-...nov-3rd-8.html Much as I'm interested in the VG20, I'll be waiting on any orders until at least Nov. 4th.

October 14th, 2011, 02:44 AM	#26
Paul Newman Major Player Join Date: Nov 2007 Location: Agua Blanca Ibiza Posts: 305	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 I think I read that the VG10 has min illumination of 11 lux at F3.5 at shutter of 1/25 and the VG20 9 lux(1/50 Shutter Speed F3.5) Paul __________________ Another Sunny Day in Ibiza

October 14th, 2011, 04:39 AM	#27
Bill Bruner Major Player Join Date: Jan 2011 Location: Sunny California Posts: 513	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 Paul - I think you're right for the European model -- the VG20 EU press release says the VG20 is 9 lux at 1/50 shutter. Couldn't get on the Sony USA site this morning because it is down for maintenance, but a side-by-side of the VG10/VG20 specs on Adorama shows slightly different shutter speed numbers for the US models: VG10 minimum illumination: 11 lux (Shutter speed: 1/30 sec, Iris: F3.5, Gain: Auto) VG20 minimum illumination: 9 lux (Shutter speed: 1/60 sec, Iris: F3.5, Gain: Auto) Cheers, Bill Hybrid Camera Revolution

October 14th, 2011, 12:22 PM	#28
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 Sony typically improves performance as they progress (I say typically, as sometimes there are some "steps backwards"...). One of the areas they are very conscious of is "low light" shooting. They've had more "tweak time" with the 16Mpix chip, so I'd expect it to be "better", but so for the 24Mpix chip in the NEX7/A77 looks pretty good. After finally getting hands on with a HX100V (too bad they didn't enable more manual control while shooting video!), I'm really leaning towards the physical design of the NEX7 - I can add a small flash bracket/grip to the left side, all the controls will be pretty much at my thumb tip, and aside from having to collect some new glass in "E" mount, it would make for a pretty comfortable cam to shoot, at least for me.

October 15th, 2011, 01:47 AM	#29
John McCully Major Player Join Date: Oct 2003 Location: South Island, New Zealand Posts: 609 Images: 2	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 I’m also leaning towards the NEX 7 as you are Dave. That 24 megapixel sensor is looking good and the size/form factor is most appealing. Its place in my kit will be for DoF shooting, mostly outdoors, and for high quality stills. If I didn’t have other cameras the NEX VG 20 would make more sense perhaps. And given the E-mount lens line is rapidly expanding, apparently, purchasing a NEX VG 20 body later is a solid option. What lenses are you looking to obtain, may I ask?

October 15th, 2011, 01:14 PM	#30
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	Re: I need another camera - maybe the NEX-VG20 The stock 18-55 for starters to see if the camera resonates with me as I expect... then I might look into the adapter as I've got plenty of what I regard as "nice" "A" mount glass and don't particularly want to recreate the collection... main thing is all these 20+ year old lenses are built like tanks in comparison, so will be "lens heavy" in any configuration! Already noticing it with the A55/Minolta 24-105(D) combo... If I go this direction, it would be a "supplemental" camera, likely replacing an "A" mount camera, with the video as a strong bonus - the A series seem OK for video, but manual controls would be nice, and I'm always happy with smaller/lighter.