Sony NEX VG10 new "PRO" Model

Steve Mullen · December 17th, 2010, 05:09 PM

It seems at the NJ Sony meeting they were asked if they were going to do a upscale version of the VG10 and they said NO.

If this is true, then by bet is that mid-2011 Sony will release a VG20 that adds the focus assist function ( whose firmware obviously already exists!) plus audio controls for the wonderful mic. And, likely an improved menu from the coming NEX-7. Adding all this would constitute a genuine new model.

Of course, no 24p.

I don't remember if Sony has ever reduced the price of a camcorder as that is another option to move this crippled version more into the consumer space. It simply should be $1500 which might be possible if they bundled the 1855.

Right now the NEX-5 gives you a better shooting experience with two lenses for only $900! The video is really the same. Or, buy it with the cheapest lens and add a $35 adaptor for access to Nikon, Canon, and Minolta lenses.

Marcus Durham · December 17th, 2010, 07:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Right now the NEX-5 gives you a better shooting experience with two lenses for only $900! The video is really the same. Or, buy it with the cheapest lens and add a $35 adaptor for access to Nikon, Canon, and Minolta lenses.

The whole point of the VG10 is that it is video camera shaped. I wouldn't have a stills camera form factor unit if you gave me one for free!

Les Wilson · December 18th, 2010, 06:26 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Cliff Totten

Correct me if I'm wrong,...is the VG10 the "only" APSC sensor video recorder that does NOT have a video recording limitation? The only APSC camera that does not overheat?

I think APSC vs MFT chip size is irrelevant. In an age when DSLR boxes half the price do not have the limit and do have focus assist, 1:1 crop mode, 24p etc, the VG10 looks like a miscalculation. As the sole player in the price point, Sony could have grabbed the market. Instead, by crippling the VG10, the market seems to be going to the Panny GH2 and AF100 who have the only large sensor cameras with all kinds of focus assist, audio meters 60p and 24p. For the price of a VG10, you can buy a TM700 and a GH2 and have all kinds of bases covered, except a top handle.

Steve Mullen · December 18th, 2010, 04:40 PM

"As the sole player in the price point, Sony could have grabbed the market. Instead, by crippling the VG10, the market seems to be going to the Panny GH2 and AF100 who have the only large sensor cameras with all kinds of focus assist, audio meters 60p and 24p."

After reading about the GH2, I've got to agree 100%. Crippling the VG10 only makes sense if an uncrippled pro division nxcam was coming soon. Now I can buy a gh2 with a short zoom, which is what I use on the vg10 (1855), for half the price.

Unless you hate using a still camera form factor, which I don't, I just can't see buying a vg10 from this point forward.

However, IMHO Sony has a winner in the NEX-5 because it gives all the lens options and has a wonderful Focus Assist. If you like 720p that's not AVCHD -- for native editing on a Mac -- then the NEX-3 has all the critical parts of the vg10. Both of these are cheap, and being discounted.

Bottom-line my VG-10 book is being rewritten to be a NEX family Ebook. It will focus mostly on the 3 and 5, but with some stuff that's not in the VG10 manual. The lens, Sooting Guide, and editing Chapters are obviously for all NEX cameras.

By the way, I put the NEX-5 on a camcorder pistol grip and it IS a camcorder. My right hand is free to adjust all the controls on the back, top, and lens. Very stable! I'm glad I bought the grip in Japan for my hi8 camera two decades ago. If only Sony still put LANC on every camcorder.

Cliff Totten · December 18th, 2010, 07:11 PM

Yeah, RED we know about and the AF100 is just about here now. However, as far as the comparables in the market, ($3K or less APSC camera) it seems that only the VG10 is the only one that can record for longer than 20min without overheating.

Sony MUST be doing something soon to answer the gap between VG10 and new NXCAM super 35mm.

My only guess is the rumored A77? (even that prolly wont really fit the bill)

I think just adding focus assist alone to the existing VG10 will make it WAY more attractive to the "pro" crowd.

One thing. I have read that the VG10 does NOT output live HDMI when recording? (only on playback?) Is this true?

Sony MUST have something planned for CES. I have such a hard time believing they would allow their competition to own the APSC sensor $2-$3K market so easily.

CT

Dave Blackhurst · December 19th, 2010, 03:54 PM

I'd expect at least an "incremental" upgrade of the VG10 - think "HC7-HC9". I'm already seeing the VG10's coming up barely used and selling around the $1600 price point, so to expect Sony to drop the price isn't out of line - they are already agressively discounting on certain of the latest SLR/SLT models, the ones that aren't quite as popular.

The heat issue is a BIG one IMO, it's one of the downsides in the A33/A55 lineup (also using the NEX sensor or a variation thereof, IIRC), as it will force shorter clips that any artificial limit. To me this is the one "gotcha" with many of the "dual purpose" cameras - short clip times... but for what they DO, they have a place in one's kit.

I did a little looking around for GH2's, didn't see anything "half the price" of the VG10... a little cheaper maybe, but I'm sorta waiting for enough A55's to come into the market for a good deal on a used one... that's WAY less than half the VG10 price, and not much more than the NEX5's, although those are coming up fairly reasonable... tempting, but just a bit "odd" in form factor IMO, although I've got a pistol grip around here SOMEWHERE... HMMMMM....

Paulo Teixeira · December 19th, 2010, 05:17 PM

He meant the GH2 with the standard lens. That's $1,000 and the version without the lens is $900 although there are a lot of people getting the body for only $630 either because of their company or they are unfairly using some of the companies that were posted online. I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic were to start an investigation into this matter but on the other hand, if it wasn't for the $630, some of those people might have looked elsewhere such as the people who are bragging online that they got it for that price. A lot of them will also be posting videos online and that's more advertising for Panasonic. Panasonic may or may not get some people in trouble but they probably will make it much harder to get the discount from now on.

Les Wilson · December 19th, 2010, 06:21 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Dave Blackhurst

I did a little looking around for GH2's, didn't see anything "half the price" of the VG10.

Standard GH2 kit from B&H: $999
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/736365-REG/Panasonic_DMC_GH2K_K_Lumix_DMC_GH2_Digital_Camera.html
Standard VG10 kit from B&H $1998:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/717535-REG/Sony_NEX_VG10_NEX_VG10_Interchangeable_Lens_Handycam.html
Yes the lenses are different GH2:14-42mm vs VG10 18-200mm.

But if you want to buy a large sensor box and put your own lenses on it, those are the basic packages. I haven't seen the GH2 body only since the early days of Amazon that was later withdrawn so didn't even include that.

Paulo Teixeira · December 19th, 2010, 06:52 PM

I bought the GH2 body only from my local authorized dealer and a lot of people bought it body only from Panasonic Direct very recently.

Les Wilson · December 19th, 2010, 07:06 PM

That's good news. Does it record longer than 20 minutes without overheating?

Paulo Teixeira · December 19th, 2010, 08:47 PM

If your talking about the GH2, I'd suspect it would be like the GH1 and have absolutely no heating issues compared to your average DSLR. I think the VG10 doesn't have issues either. I've been using my GH1 extensively like a camcorder for a year and a half now and again never had a heating issue and lots of other people have never had heating issue as well. There's also no time limit on non European units. For the European units, there's 30 minute limits which is definitely not perfect but still more time than any DSLR except for the VG10.

This is like when the 7D first came out, a whole bunch of people started complaining that if you shoot in 720 60p for a long time, you'd get severe heating issues. The heating issues are less if you shoot in 1080 24p. It just seam like Sony is getting more "heat" over the issue. Either way I can care less since I do a lot of event shooting and neither the A55 or 7D/60D would benefit me.

I used to want the VG10 badly but hearing about it's lack of serious features compared to everybody else was a big turn off for me. I almost considered it the re-incarnation of my HC1 since when that thing was first released, it was truly remarkable compared to a lot of what was out there but even though the VG10 is in a camcorder body, it doesn't have the type of praise the HC1 used to have. For sure if Sony added more features, it would have been hard to get when it first got released because a lot more people would have been snatching it up.

Cliff Totten · December 19th, 2010, 11:51 PM

Can any VG10 owners confirm this:

"I have read that the VG10 does NOT output live HDMI when recording? (only on playback?) Is this true?"

CT

Dave Blackhurst · December 20th, 2010, 01:59 PM

I'd love to get a GH2 for $600... probably snap it up "just because" - but the pricing I'm seeing with a 14-140 lens that's somewhat comparable to the VG10 is $1500, about a 25% discount, and with prices on the VG10 already soft... Although I'd probably go for the GH2 based on some of the things I'm reading about it, aside from the fact that I've got plenty of Sony batteries and such already! If I stumble upon a lightly used VG10 at the right price, it would better integrate with my other gear.

Steve Mullen · December 21st, 2010, 12:27 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

Standard GH2 kit from B&H: $999
Panasonic Lumix DMC-GH2 Digital Camera W/14-42mm DMC-GH2K-K B&H

Standard VG10 kit from B&H $1998:
Sony NEX-VG10 Interchangeable Lens Handycam Camcorder NEX-VG10

Yes the lenses are different GH2:14-42mm vs VG10 18-200mm.

That's the advantage of the gh2. The 18200 totally unbalanced the tiny vg10. It becomes very front heavy and rolls to the left, just like the ex1. So you need to buy the $2000 camcorder plus the 1855 whereas with the gh2 you can just get the base kit for $1000. That's a real big savings. Next down is as the NEX-5 that's about half the gh2.

The vg10 would be more attractive as a body only, an A-mount only, or a 1855 only package. But I wouldn't walk up to a Sony person at CES and suggest that because no matter how badly it's selling they rarely make changes once something's out. They'll wait for the next generation. Remember, Sony negotiated a price for X units that likely have already been built by an outside factory.

The NEX-7 isn't going to help vg10 sales either. But, it's real enemy is the gh2. I find it sad that had Sony not crippled the vg10 and priced it at from $1000 to $1600, it could have been a winner. But, let's face it -- Sony didn't lose the HDTV market to Samsung and Vizeo AND LOSE MONEY FOR THREE YEARS by working hard to satisfy customers.

Of course, nothing stops them from releasing another firmware that adds in the missing features. And, nothing stops them from releasing a version with the 1855.

Henry Williams · December 21st, 2010, 07:53 AM

Using the larger battery balances the VG10 out nicely and offsets the weight of the lens. My XH-A1 has a similar sideways lean to it. In fact I think I've yet to work with a camera that doesn't want to go slightly to one side.

Plus it's worth pointing out that the 14-42 for the GH2 has got a lot of bad press. My brother just bought a GH2 and the first thing he did was take the kit lens off and replace it with something decent.

If were just going on "value for money" you should also factor in that the VG10 comes packaged with a free copy of VEGAS 10.

I'll try to borrow his cam and shoot some side by side test footage over Christmas, but in all honesty the relentless VG10 bashing on this forum is starting to depress me.

December 17th, 2010, 05:09 PM	#16
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	It seems at the NJ Sony meeting they were asked if they were going to do a upscale version of the VG10 and they said NO. If this is true, then by bet is that mid-2011 Sony will release a VG20 that adds the focus assist function ( whose firmware obviously already exists!) plus audio controls for the wonderful mic. And, likely an improved menu from the coming NEX-7. Adding all this would constitute a genuine new model. Of course, no 24p. I don't remember if Sony has ever reduced the price of a camcorder as that is another option to move this crippled version more into the consumer space. It simply should be $1500 which might be possible if they bundled the 1855. Right now the NEX-5 gives you a better shooting experience with two lenses for only $900! The video is really the same. Or, buy it with the cheapest lens and add a $35 adaptor for access to Nikon, Canon, and Minolta lenses. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

December 18th, 2010, 04:40 PM	#19
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	"As the sole player in the price point, Sony could have grabbed the market. Instead, by crippling the VG10, the market seems to be going to the Panny GH2 and AF100 who have the only large sensor cameras with all kinds of focus assist, audio meters 60p and 24p." After reading about the GH2, I've got to agree 100%. Crippling the VG10 only makes sense if an uncrippled pro division nxcam was coming soon. Now I can buy a gh2 with a short zoom, which is what I use on the vg10 (1855), for half the price. Unless you hate using a still camera form factor, which I don't, I just can't see buying a vg10 from this point forward. However, IMHO Sony has a winner in the NEX-5 because it gives all the lens options and has a wonderful Focus Assist. If you like 720p that's not AVCHD -- for native editing on a Mac -- then the NEX-3 has all the critical parts of the vg10. Both of these are cheap, and being discounted. Bottom-line my VG-10 book is being rewritten to be a NEX family Ebook. It will focus mostly on the 3 and 5, but with some stuff that's not in the VG10 manual. The lens, Sooting Guide, and editing Chapters are obviously for all NEX cameras. By the way, I put the NEX-5 on a camcorder pistol grip and it IS a camcorder. My right hand is free to adjust all the controls on the back, top, and lens. Very stable! I'm glad I bought the grip in Japan for my hi8 camera two decades ago. If only Sony still put LANC on every camcorder. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c

December 19th, 2010, 05:17 PM	#22
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	He meant the GH2 with the standard lens. That's $1,000 and the version without the lens is $900 although there are a lot of people getting the body for only $630 either because of their company or they are unfairly using some of the companies that were posted online. I wouldn't be surprised if Panasonic were to start an investigation into this matter but on the other hand, if it wasn't for the $630, some of those people might have looked elsewhere such as the people who are bragging online that they got it for that price. A lot of them will also be posting videos online and that's more advertising for Panasonic. Panasonic may or may not get some people in trouble but they probably will make it much harder to get the discount from now on. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

December 19th, 2010, 06:52 PM	#24
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	I bought the GH2 body only from my local authorized dealer and a lot of people bought it body only from Panasonic Direct very recently. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

December 19th, 2010, 08:47 PM	#26
Paulo Teixeira Trustee Join Date: Dec 2005 Location: Massachusetts Posts: 1,773	If your talking about the GH2, I'd suspect it would be like the GH1 and have absolutely no heating issues compared to your average DSLR. I think the VG10 doesn't have issues either. I've been using my GH1 extensively like a camcorder for a year and a half now and again never had a heating issue and lots of other people have never had heating issue as well. There's also no time limit on non European units. For the European units, there's 30 minute limits which is definitely not perfect but still more time than any DSLR except for the VG10. This is like when the 7D first came out, a whole bunch of people started complaining that if you shoot in 720 60p for a long time, you'd get severe heating issues. The heating issues are less if you shoot in 1080 24p. It just seam like Sony is getting more "heat" over the issue. Either way I can care less since I do a lot of event shooting and neither the A55 or 7D/60D would benefit me. I used to want the VG10 badly but hearing about it's lack of serious features compared to everybody else was a big turn off for me. I almost considered it the re-incarnation of my HC1 since when that thing was first released, it was truly remarkable compared to a lot of what was out there but even though the VG10 is in a camcorder body, it doesn't have the type of praise the HC1 used to have. For sure if Sony added more features, it would have been hard to get when it first got released because a lot more people would have been snatching it up. __________________ https://www.youtube.com/user/PhotoVi...esEtc/featured https://www.pond5.com/artist/paulot

December 18th, 2010, 07:11 PM	#20
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Yeah, RED we know about and the AF100 is just about here now. However, as far as the comparables in the market, ($3K or less APSC camera) it seems that only the VG10 is the only one that can record for longer than 20min without overheating. Sony MUST be doing something soon to answer the gap between VG10 and new NXCAM super 35mm. My only guess is the rumored A77? (even that prolly wont really fit the bill) I think just adding focus assist alone to the existing VG10 will make it WAY more attractive to the "pro" crowd. One thing. I have read that the VG10 does NOT output live HDMI when recording? (only on playback?) Is this true? Sony MUST have something planned for CES. I have such a hard time believing they would allow their competition to own the APSC sensor $2-$3K market so easily. CT

December 19th, 2010, 03:54 PM	#21
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	I'd expect at least an "incremental" upgrade of the VG10 - think "HC7-HC9". I'm already seeing the VG10's coming up barely used and selling around the $1600 price point, so to expect Sony to drop the price isn't out of line - they are already agressively discounting on certain of the latest SLR/SLT models, the ones that aren't quite as popular. The heat issue is a BIG one IMO, it's one of the downsides in the A33/A55 lineup (also using the NEX sensor or a variation thereof, IIRC), as it will force shorter clips that any artificial limit. To me this is the one "gotcha" with many of the "dual purpose" cameras - short clip times... but for what they DO, they have a place in one's kit. I did a little looking around for GH2's, didn't see anything "half the price" of the VG10... a little cheaper maybe, but I'm sorta waiting for enough A55's to come into the market for a good deal on a used one... that's WAY less than half the VG10 price, and not much more than the NEX5's, although those are coming up fairly reasonable... tempting, but just a bit "odd" in form factor IMO, although I've got a pistol grip around here SOMEWHERE... HMMMMM....

December 19th, 2010, 07:06 PM	#25
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	That's good news. Does it record longer than 20 minutes without overheating?

December 19th, 2010, 11:51 PM	#27
Cliff Totten Trustee Join Date: Aug 2010 Location: Florida Posts: 1,197	Can any VG10 owners confirm this: "I have read that the VG10 does NOT output live HDMI when recording? (only on playback?) Is this true?" CT

December 20th, 2010, 01:59 PM	#28
Dave Blackhurst Inner Circle Join Date: Feb 2007 Location: Apple Valley CA Posts: 4,874	I'd love to get a GH2 for $600... probably snap it up "just because" - but the pricing I'm seeing with a 14-140 lens that's somewhat comparable to the VG10 is $1500, about a 25% discount, and with prices on the VG10 already soft... Although I'd probably go for the GH2 based on some of the things I'm reading about it, aside from the fact that I've got plenty of Sony batteries and such already! If I stumble upon a lightly used VG10 at the right price, it would better integrate with my other gear.

December 21st, 2010, 07:53 AM	#30
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	Using the larger battery balances the VG10 out nicely and offsets the weight of the lens. My XH-A1 has a similar sideways lean to it. In fact I think I've yet to work with a camera that doesn't want to go slightly to one side. Plus it's worth pointing out that the 14-42 for the GH2 has got a lot of bad press. My brother just bought a GH2 and the first thing he did was take the kit lens off and replace it with something decent. If were just going on "value for money" you should also factor in that the VG10 comes packaged with a free copy of VEGAS 10. I'll try to borrow his cam and shoot some side by side test footage over Christmas, but in all honesty the relentless VG10 bashing on this forum is starting to depress me.