looking hard at the VG10

Les Wilson · December 12th, 2010, 10:23 PM

Professional: "There's been confusion and wrong specs printed about the 60i recording of the VG10. The sensor captures in 30p but Sony stores it in 60 fields.

Unprofessional: "Dear god, another person who doesn't know anything about the VG10!"

Steve Mullen · December 13th, 2010, 03:18 AM

You are totally right about the confusion which was caused bySony when it published world-wide the wrong specs. You have to ask how a company this big can make this kind of error.

And, if you read one of the early "pre-reviews" they would have had it wrong. And, if you didn't go back and check and didn't read the post on other long thread here, you would never. I forget that some are coming into this new section without reading the other thread. I appologise.

And, there is a problem with a limiter if you are recording two channels and not stereo or mono. The limiter acts on both inputs at the same time.

You can kuldge a solution by using a mixer and setting both gains to not output levels above about -8dB. Then neither trigger limiting.

Also, it is reasonable to believe that although the digital circuits are 16-bits -- the lower 2-3 may be lost it digital noise. Moreover the Dolby compression may not support 16 bits.

So I do understand the feeling that one needs manual gains, I'm not sure how while shooting one could ride the gain on two channels and never allow clipping while increasing gain in low sound points. The gain controls are almost behind your ear.

I used to do recording and even in a studio this was very hard. Especially not to introduced errors. Mostly we allowed +6dB peaks because the clipping was soft.

The solution is someone with a mixer, but if you have a person for this they might as well have a 4 channel digital recorder. So when I say its a myth I should say I just don't see how one person could do anything else.

Les Wilson · December 13th, 2010, 07:49 AM

Apology accepted. I was surprised to discover the B&H specs tab was just flat out missing the 30p capability. After your post I dug up the Sony page and found the 30p recording there. In the end, I remembered stopping interest in the camera because I wanted a B-camera that did 24p. Otherwise, I would be leaning hard toward it too subject to aliasing and moire issues.

To be clear, I didn't bring up the limiter. Your knowledge about it is impressive.

Marcus Durham · December 13th, 2010, 07:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

The solution is someone with a mixer, but if you have a person for this they might as well have a 4 channel digital recorder. So when I say its a myth I should say I just don't see how one person could do anything else.

I manage to shoot most weeks with cameras with manual audio controls and don't have any problems. Having no controls is a problem because you can't compensate for someone who is quietly spoken, or who is very loud. The controls on the EX1 allow me to tweak as I go along. 80% of the time you don't need to touch them but there are always occasions that adjustments are needed.

But I'd never use the VG10 for audio anyway. As far as I'm concerned it might as well have no audio capacity, it's the look of the lenses I am after.

Marius Boruch · December 13th, 2010, 02:04 PM

I bought this camera to test it and I am returning it back to the store. I can't film with this camera. The LCD is so small that it is impossible for me to tell what is in focus. If you want "close enough" shots then go ahead and buy it. I have EX1, AX2000 and xr550V; the LCD in VG10 is worst one; no peaking not even expanded focus; it is just ridiculous. The only way to film with this camera is to have external monitor. Period. If I have to use external monitor then I'd go with Nikon or Canon.

Henry Williams · December 13th, 2010, 02:39 PM

I'm sorry you felt unable to use the camera, but to state that it's unusable period without an external monitor simply isn't true. There are lots of people getting very good footage with just the camera and kit lens out of the box.

Marius Boruch · December 13th, 2010, 02:47 PM

give me honest answer: filming with VG10 and using camera's [horrible] LCD can you tell what's in focus in your shot. honestly. I am using EX1 and maybe I am spoiled by its LCD and tons of info displayed on screen but I know one thing for sure I am doing this for living and I MUST be sure if my shot is focused properly.

Henry Williams · December 13th, 2010, 03:24 PM

I do understand that you use the cameras to make your living, in common with many of the rest of us on this forum, and so need reliable performance.

I haven't had any problems so far with the kit lens, but I'm used to working without focus assist and just zooming in and judging it by eye (normally literally!) so maybe my requirements are less exacting.

This is the first time I've worked with primes and I am sometimes finding it a little tricky to pull focus accurately on mid-range subjects when I can't zoom in and check I'm sharp. That said, the 7" lilliput field monitor retails for very little indeed and should fix the problem if we don't get some kind of firmware update to help out...

Marius Boruch · December 13th, 2010, 03:48 PM

see, using that 7" monitor defeats the point of creating shallow dept of field camcorder (I guess that was Sony's idea - to create one integral piece); if we have to carry additional equipment then it will be better to use Nikon or Canon cameras.
It is a step in right direction by Sony but first model (VG10) lacks so many necessary features; it looks like they cut corners to lower the price of final product. It shouldn't be so hard to provide peaking or at least focus expansion feature - it is all digital it could be easily done in firmware. To give you an example how far they went: they eliminated battery usage data so now you see only "dumb" icon of "full/empty" battery whereas in XR550V which uses same batteries you have exact amount on minutes remaining; in professional setting it is important for me to know where I am with power usage. It is not a rocket science for crying out loud.

Marcus Durham · December 13th, 2010, 04:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius Boruch

give me honest answer: filming with VG10 and using camera's [horrible] LCD can you tell what's in focus in your shot. honestly. I am using EX1 and maybe I am spoiled by its LCD and tons of info displayed on screen but I know one thing for sure I am doing this for living and I MUST be sure if my shot is focused properly.

I'm amused to think how you might have coped in the days of 16mm.

As a fellow EX1 user, the VG10 is another tool for the toolbox. The lack of focus assist is pain but not a killer. This isn't a run and gun camera like the EX1. Each shot takes time to setup. You have to compose the shot, check and double check. You'll get wonderful results, but unlike the EX1 those results may not be quick.

With the zoom lens, focusing is easy, simply zoom in as normal and get your focus. With prime lenses its harder, but not impossible by any means. Of course with then non-Sony primes, you will have a distance indicator on the focus barrel to help you. Personally (and perhaps there is a way to tell this) I find the Sony lenses a pain because you have no idea where you are focussed other than by eye because the focus ring just rotates forever!

If I was shooting an event where things were happening quickly, and there was no chance of a retake I wouldn't be using the VG10. That's EX1 territory. You have to remember that the VG10 is essentially a handycam with a big sensor you can stick some nice glass on. You might argue its more expensive than a standard Handycam, but as soon as you have deducted the cost of the stock lens it really isn't.

That said, my Canon Legria has focus assist but lack other features that make it equally fiddly. So make of that what you will!

Henry Williams · December 13th, 2010, 04:45 PM

Marius,

A prosumer and Cinealta version of the camera are coming.The VG10 is a high end consumer camcorder. It was marketed and priced as such. It just happens to shoot amazing footage that can outclass cameras twice it's price.

If you want pro features such as you describe you have to pay for a pro camera, or accept a degree of improvisation/compromise in return for the picture quality. I happen to think using a VG10 involves far less compromise than a DSLR equivalent, hence my purchase. You don't, hence your return.

Marius Boruch · December 13th, 2010, 04:51 PM

these improvements are very easy to make (for Sony); it is in the firmware;

Henry Williams · December 13th, 2010, 04:57 PM

But they're unlikely to make them on a consumer camera. I suggest you wait until the prosumer and cinealta versions come out later in the year and purchase one of those.

Robert Young · December 13th, 2010, 06:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Marius Boruch

these improvements are very easy to make (for Sony); it is in the firmware;

It's not a question of how easy it would be for Sony to offer more features. It's about how they percieve the need to slice and dice the marketplace so that they do not cut their own throat.
The specs and features of this camera are well known, and thoroughly discussed/reviewed/dissected all over the web. There is no rational excuse for buying this camera and being surprised that it doesn't have the features of an EX1.
The VG 10 is for consumers and that is a deliberate marketing decision, not a technology/price limitation.
For the professional shooters who need pro features, the solution will arrive in 2011 with the addition of 2 new pro level 35mm chip cams. Sony really wants you to buy these cameras if you want more features.
They are simply not going to give the farm away in a $2K Handicam (actually a $1.2K Handicam, if you discount the lens).
I think it is a clever strategy personally- I can play around with large chip shooting using the VG10. If I get hooked on it, maybe I'll upgrade- I can even continue to use my existing lenses. If not, I'll still have a fun B cam for DOF shots.

Henry Williams · December 13th, 2010, 06:30 PM

Absolutely agreed, Robert. The limitations of the camera are well documented and should be no surprise. Given the regular and vocal criticism of the VG10 I feel the need to re-emphasise how pleased I am with my purchase and the results I'm getting from it.

This is more of the same as the "my camera's controls lock out randomly. It must be faulty. I've sent it back and am getting a D60... What do you mean I was accidentally pressing the photo button with my knuckle?!" farago.

YouTube - Sony nexvg10 locks up while shutter release is pressed.

If people did their research properly before buying the world would be a happier place :)

December 13th, 2010, 03:18 AM	#32
Steve Mullen HDV Cinema Join Date: Feb 2003 Location: Las Vegas Posts: 4,007	You are totally right about the confusion which was caused bySony when it published world-wide the wrong specs. You have to ask how a company this big can make this kind of error. And, if you read one of the early "pre-reviews" they would have had it wrong. And, if you didn't go back and check and didn't read the post on other long thread here, you would never. I forget that some are coming into this new section without reading the other thread. I appologise. And, there is a problem with a limiter if you are recording two channels and not stereo or mono. The limiter acts on both inputs at the same time. You can kuldge a solution by using a mixer and setting both gains to not output levels above about -8dB. Then neither trigger limiting. Also, it is reasonable to believe that although the digital circuits are 16-bits -- the lower 2-3 may be lost it digital noise. Moreover the Dolby compression may not support 16 bits. So I do understand the feeling that one needs manual gains, I'm not sure how while shooting one could ride the gain on two channels and never allow clipping while increasing gain in low sound points. The gain controls are almost behind your ear. I used to do recording and even in a studio this was very hard. Especially not to introduced errors. Mostly we allowed +6dB peaks because the clipping was soft. The solution is someone with a mixer, but if you have a person for this they might as well have a 4 channel digital recorder. So when I say its a myth I should say I just don't see how one person could do anything else. __________________ Switcher's Quick Guide to the Avid Media Composer >>> http://home.mindspring.com/~d-v-c Last edited by Steve Mullen; December 13th, 2010 at 10:28 PM.

December 13th, 2010, 04:45 PM	#41
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	Marius, A prosumer and Cinealta version of the camera are coming.The VG10 is a high end consumer camcorder. It was marketed and priced as such. It just happens to shoot amazing footage that can outclass cameras twice it's price. If you want pro features such as you describe you have to pay for a pro camera, or accept a degree of improvisation/compromise in return for the picture quality. I happen to think using a VG10 involves far less compromise than a DSLR equivalent, hence my purchase. You don't, hence your return. Last edited by Henry Williams; December 13th, 2010 at 04:47 PM. Reason: to make intended recipient clear

December 12th, 2010, 10:23 PM	#31
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Professional: "There's been confusion and wrong specs printed about the 60i recording of the VG10. The sensor captures in 30p but Sony stores it in 60 fields. Unprofessional: "Dear god, another person who doesn't know anything about the VG10!"

December 13th, 2010, 07:49 AM	#33
Les Wilson Inner Circle Join Date: Jan 2004 Location: Boca Raton, FL Posts: 3,014	Apology accepted. I was surprised to discover the B&H specs tab was just flat out missing the 30p capability. After your post I dug up the Sony page and found the 30p recording there. In the end, I remembered stopping interest in the camera because I wanted a B-camera that did 24p. Otherwise, I would be leaning hard toward it too subject to aliasing and moire issues. To be clear, I didn't bring up the limiter. Your knowledge about it is impressive.

December 13th, 2010, 02:04 PM	#35
Marius Boruch Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 421	I bought this camera to test it and I am returning it back to the store. I can't film with this camera. The LCD is so small that it is impossible for me to tell what is in focus. If you want "close enough" shots then go ahead and buy it. I have EX1, AX2000 and xr550V; the LCD in VG10 is worst one; no peaking not even expanded focus; it is just ridiculous. The only way to film with this camera is to have external monitor. Period. If I have to use external monitor then I'd go with Nikon or Canon.

December 13th, 2010, 02:39 PM	#36
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	I'm sorry you felt unable to use the camera, but to state that it's unusable period without an external monitor simply isn't true. There are lots of people getting very good footage with just the camera and kit lens out of the box.

December 13th, 2010, 02:47 PM	#37
Marius Boruch Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 421	give me honest answer: filming with VG10 and using camera's [horrible] LCD can you tell what's in focus in your shot. honestly. I am using EX1 and maybe I am spoiled by its LCD and tons of info displayed on screen but I know one thing for sure I am doing this for living and I MUST be sure if my shot is focused properly.

December 13th, 2010, 03:24 PM	#38
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	I do understand that you use the cameras to make your living, in common with many of the rest of us on this forum, and so need reliable performance. I haven't had any problems so far with the kit lens, but I'm used to working without focus assist and just zooming in and judging it by eye (normally literally!) so maybe my requirements are less exacting. This is the first time I've worked with primes and I am sometimes finding it a little tricky to pull focus accurately on mid-range subjects when I can't zoom in and check I'm sharp. That said, the 7" lilliput field monitor retails for very little indeed and should fix the problem if we don't get some kind of firmware update to help out...

December 13th, 2010, 03:48 PM	#39
Marius Boruch Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 421	see, using that 7" monitor defeats the point of creating shallow dept of field camcorder (I guess that was Sony's idea - to create one integral piece); if we have to carry additional equipment then it will be better to use Nikon or Canon cameras. It is a step in right direction by Sony but first model (VG10) lacks so many necessary features; it looks like they cut corners to lower the price of final product. It shouldn't be so hard to provide peaking or at least focus expansion feature - it is all digital it could be easily done in firmware. To give you an example how far they went: they eliminated battery usage data so now you see only "dumb" icon of "full/empty" battery whereas in XR550V which uses same batteries you have exact amount on minutes remaining; in professional setting it is important for me to know where I am with power usage. It is not a rocket science for crying out loud.

December 13th, 2010, 04:51 PM	#42
Marius Boruch Major Player Join Date: Aug 2005 Posts: 421	these improvements are very easy to make (for Sony); it is in the firmware;

December 13th, 2010, 04:57 PM	#43
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	But they're unlikely to make them on a consumer camera. I suggest you wait until the prosumer and cinealta versions come out later in the year and purchase one of those.

December 13th, 2010, 06:30 PM	#45
Henry Williams Major Player Join Date: May 2010 Location: Lewisham, London, United Kingdom Posts: 408	Absolutely agreed, Robert. The limitations of the camera are well documented and should be no surprise. Given the regular and vocal criticism of the VG10 I feel the need to re-emphasise how pleased I am with my purchase and the results I'm getting from it. This is more of the same as the "my camera's controls lock out randomly. It must be faulty. I've sent it back and am getting a D60... What do you mean I was accidentally pressing the photo button with my knuckle?!" farago. YouTube - Sony nexvg10 locks up while shutter release is pressed. If people did their research properly before buying the world would be a happier place :)