looking hard at the VG10

[Henry Williams]

Agreed re: the VG10's potential. The ability to use a decent sized HDMI monitor without shutting down everything else would really help with focusing primes but other than that I'm really excited by it. I bought one for short film and music video use over the D60 because I didn't want the DSLR form factor and love the footage I'm getting out of it. Exciting times ahead, I'd certainly feel a bit leery about recommending a fixed lens camcorder to anyone right now.

I chose that video because of the subject matter, because there were some really nice shots in amongst it and the footage seemed achievable by someone getting used to the camera.

[Dino Santarossa]

First thanks for all of your patience and responses to my post.

Steve, "Once you have seen video from the big-chip cameras on a bigger than 60" screen you will not want to go back to tiny chip camcorders."
By this are you speaking of the chip in the VG10 or the 1/2 or greater chips in the Pro models. I see this on your sign out “Field Guide to Sony NEX-VG10 (ISBN 1435459032)” where can I read/acquire this. Another question, is the interlace 60 to 30p (no 24p) a big deal as to DVDs for personal distribution.


The situation I will be shooting in will be in the woods, farm fields, marsh and on the boat. I like the shallow DOF, start on a foreground image and focus to further image in the frame losing the crisp first focal point. This could be a fern on the forest floor to white tailed deer emerging from the marsh. Knowing this setting must be set means not all has to be done in this manner. This is the way you most often see them come in. They are ghost like, all of a sudden they are there, no audible announcement of their approach they just emerge and you think “how did you get there without me noticing”. This is what I am after.

Auto focus to manual focus with one touch is a must as there is almost no chance of having an unobstructed view of anything. As you can imagine following a subject through the forest what auto would do.
As for the time to learn, that is what this leg work now is about. I have been reading and confusing myself for the last few weeks and why I joined this forum, the process begins now.

Quality of final product depends on skill with camera and computer, both skills I now am short on. Do I need Big Budget studio footage, no, but to submit work to one of the outdoor shows and have it aired as a prostaff is a good dream. This is not big screen stuff as can be seen by the snow, I mean show on TV airing as I type this. Gain must be cranked, it’s grainy as hell. I can do this now. I filmed my daughter on her first hunt and a friend did the edit. Turned out great and those who have seen it are kind or actually like it. No big zooms, fast pans and I gave him loads of material to extract what he needed.

I had the VG10 in hand today and still think it is #1 on the list. I am wondering if renting it for a couple days or for the weekend would be possible. This will get sample footage to edit.

Again, Thanks to all, Dino

[John Wiley]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

The VG10 is the ONLY CAMCORDER at $2000 that delivers the quality the others do without dealing with still camera limitations.

The VG10 may solve some of the problems - like form factor, but it still has many of the same problems as the still cameras. It still has terrible aliasing. It still has no power zoom. It still has no manual gain control for audio, not meters, no zebras, and a histogram that shuts off when you need it most. And yes, it has a viewfinder, but only if you're happy to leave the camera in auto mode - because all the controls are located under the LCD screen and as soon as you open that up to reach the controls, the VF switches off!

[Henry Williams]

...and its still the best thing out there right now in it's price range ;)

[Les Wilson]

Dino...don't confuse shifting focus (aka focus racking) with shallow depth of field. Focus racks can be done with non-large sensor camcorders. Take a look at Dave Old Duffer Rice's stuff on Vimeo. Anything older than September was shot on a Canon HV30 class camera (1-chip 1/2.7" sensor) and after September, a Canon XH-A1 (3-chip 1/3" sensors). If anything, nature videography affords you the environment you need to do focus racks and shallow depth of field effects with non-large sensor camcorder designs. I'm not dissing the VG-10. It's limitations that make it hard to focus and expose are well documented by others and you've already picked up that it only shoots 60i. There's no such thing as "the best camera", only the "best camera for you".

Here's an HVxx video of Dave's:

Sitka Alaska's Autumn Mystery on Vimeo

Here's an XHA1 video:

Autumn's Last Hurrah on Vimeo

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by John Wiley

The VG10 may solve some of the problems - like form factor, but it still has many of the same problems as the still cameras. It still has terrible aliasing. It still has no power zoom. It still has no manual gain control for audio, not meters, no zebras, and a histogram that shuts off when you need it most. And yes, it has a viewfinder, but only if you're happy to leave the camera in auto mode - because all the controls are located under the LCD screen and as soon as you open that up to reach the controls, the VF switches off!

Let's take the last, first.

Do you have a VG10? Because if you do, please use the FINDER/LVD switch! Otherwise you are repeating an erroneous post from last July!

No histogram? Try the DISP button!

And, how would you know if the aliasing is "terrible?"

Of course it has no power-zoom -- 35mm type lense don't have power zooms. Not a limitation of any of the cameras. The lenses that people buy interchangeable lens camcorders for don't have power zooms.

With an audio limiter there is NO need for a meter or gain control. You are think of analog recording. Digital audio has never needed these 20th century gadgets.

Do you have a meter that shows the digital video recording level? Do you have a control that adjusts the "write" signal to tape or card? How do you know its recording? In the early days of analog recording VTRs had these functions.

[Steve Mullen]

Originally Posted by Les Wilson

and you've already picked up that it only shoots 60i.]

Dear god, another person who doesn't know anything about the VG10!

It shoots PROGRESSIVE VIDEO. It always has, either 25p or 30p.

These comments are so like the owners of Beta-SP when Sony released the first DV camcorder. It hurts when you see your investments going down the drain. :)

The real question is if his work is being done for SD broadcast, wouldn't a used PRO camcorder be a better buy. Anything that shot DV or DVCAM might be a great option.

An HDV Sony FX1 that can output DV over FireWire might be perfect. Or, a Sony Z1!

I'd also look at a JVC HD-100 with a PRO Canon 18X zoom. I'll give him a free book I wrote on the HD100.

I'm not pushing the VG10!

[Steve Mullen]

[QUOTE=Dino Santarossa;1596495[/QUOTE]

What the VG10 records is 1080i60/30 becomes NTSC 480i60 easily. No ptoblem for the TV station.

Alas, there is no one touch! However, given the light, I expect you will lokk the the VF and manually focus. It's also the only way to see clearly enough to change focus. The LCD is very nice, but looking at a 3" screen 1 to 2 feet away does not work with these old eyes.

However, I am serious when I posted that maybe getting a last generation professional camera might be best for you. Although they shoot HDV, they send ordinary DV out by FireWire. I'll bet you can edit this easily. And you'll have the originals in HD.

Google the Z1 FX1 HD100. I think the HD100 with the a pro lens would blow you aware.

Example: JVC GY-HD110U HDV Camcorder HD100U HD110 720P HD100* - eBay (item 370460616007 end time Dec-26-10 23:26:35 PST)

[Les Wilson]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

Dear god, another person who doesn't know anything about the VG10!

It shoots PROGRESSIVE VIDEO. It always has, either 25p or 30p.

These comments are so like the owners of Beta-SP when Sony released the first DV camcorder. It hurts when you see your investments going down the drain. :)

You are right about it storing in 25p and 30p but you are wrong to put me in the Beta-SP box. I looked at this camera and many others a few months ago when it hit the scene. It's hard to keep track of them all but I did check B&H. Attached is what they listed. Neither Signal system nor Recording rate specify it lays it down in 25p or 30p.

But just now I took the time and went back to a review I'd read in HD warrior and noticed this:
"The first thing that has confused me is the 1080 50i now for all intent and purposes this camcorder records 1080 50i but that is capturing at 25p and wrapping it as 50i why…Confused ? Well, you’re not the only one. In brief, what’s going on is "

I don't mind the correction but I do mind the manner in which you did it. Here's the article:
HD Warrior Blog Archiv SONY NEX-VG10 Conclusions

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Steve Mullen

With an audio limiter there is NO need for a meter or gain control. You are think of analog recording. Digital audio has never needed these 20th century gadgets.

Steve, it doesn't help that when you are picking up peoples errors, you are posting more errors yourself.

Let me assure you with digital, audio levels are just as critical. Take my EX1, a camera much further up Sony's food chain. It has full manual audio control. I can choose to switch a limiter in if I wish, but that would create other problems. I certainly need to pay attention to how the inputs are set or there will be problems.

All a limiter does is limit the signal when it reaches a certain level, thereby reducing the dynamic range. Basically I suspect the camera has an automatic gain control and a limiter which is a pretty normal setup in a consumer camera. And this is a high end consumer camera after all.

Sony don't offer control over the audio for the same reason the VG10 doesn't offer focus assist or a viewfinder that displays video when the LCD is open. That reason is they need to keep clear blue water between their different models.

[Henry Williams]

Marcus, just open the lcd screen and press the button at the bottom right of the main control panel labelled lcd/finder. It will switch the lcd screen off and the viewfinder back on, only now you have full access to the controls/histogram etc...

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Henry Williams

Marcus, just open the lcd screen and press the button at the bottom right of the main control panel labelled lcd/finder. It will switch the lcd screen off and the viewfinder back on, only now you have full access to the controls/histogram etc...

But it is still the case you have to have one or the other, you can't have both.

[Henry Williams]

Can you have both with the EX cameras? My XH-A1 will also only allow one at a time...

[Marcus Durham]

Originally Posted by Henry Williams

Can you have both with the EX cameras? My XH-A1 will also only allow one at a time...

I'm pretty sure it does. I don't use the viewfinder that much day to day but with the VG10 I found myself trying it out. I can't remember ever having to shut the LCD to view the viewfinder on the EX1. I can remember having to do it on my old PDX10.

The VG10's viewfinder isn't up to much. It seems to separate into RGB components if you move your head or blink which was rather distracting. I'd rather have a high quality B/W viewfinder than a poor colour one.

The other problem I've read about but can't confirm, is that you can't output via DVI with the viewfinder or LCD on. A shame as it would have been nice to buy one of those external recorders that does ProRes and stream out to that to avoid the AVCHD compression.

[Steve Mullen]

I think it is important not to label as a problem something only a tiny minority who buy a $2000 camcorder would ever use. Why not mention the lack of a 10 bit hd-sdi output?

This is all utter nonsense just like the beta sp folks used against DV. There's no need for HDMI or hd-sdi in the CONSUMER price range.

Preferring a B&W vf is fine, go find a $2000 camcorder that this. There's a song that applies to these kinds of posts, "wishing and wanting."

Likewise, the fact folks keep thinking they need a wider dynamic range is a problem of BELIEF. Digital camcorders have 16 bit input which is about 96 dB of dynamic range. This is the same dynamic range as a CD, so to argue that this is not enough flys in the fact that this a huge range for anything you are likely to record on a camcorder.

In digital, the only rule is no clipping.

Now, if you use a very sensitive mic that constantly forces limiting -- that's not good. But, the problem is that YOU are using the wrong mic. It's like plugging a 120 vac device into a 240 vac outlet and saying the device is faulty. You should know you need to match levels.

This is why pro cameras have a input attenuators switches. You set them to make a match. If you buy a consumer camcorder, you attenuate between the balanced mic and the unbalanced input. If you don't have the money for pro gear you have to have skills. One or the other.

In fact, I'd argue that the good thing about starting cheap is it forces one to develop skills.

Also, the VG10 does not have auto gain. That was another rumor posted months ago.

In fact, if you compare the VG10 against the other HDSLRs you'll find it compares very well. The Nikon records mono at 11kHz!

Sorry if I was too harsh, but I'm not sure what makes people post information when they don't use the product and they are relying on information that was posted and immediately corrected.

Professional isn't really the equipment one owns -- it's what you knows. Passing on old rumors -- before anyone had the product -- isn't very professional IMHO.