Sony NEX-VG10 AVCHD E-Mount Lens Camcorder

[Simon Wyndham]

All you need to know is that you can get true progressive frames from it. Although not silly 24p.

As Alister pointed out on the first page this *isn't* the prototype that was shown at NAB. So expect the EX beater to be announced later. Personally I've had enough of the darling camera phase and I won't be chasing tech any more. I you want me to use a particular camera then hire it and I'll come along and use it for you. Otherwise put up with what I own already.

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

The problem with the approach is that it gives no indication of temporal motion. 30P, 60i, or 30P in 60i are all 30 frames a second.

I don't dispute that, Ron, I'm just passing on what the standards bodies have decreed. And the nomenclature that is increasingly being used by manufacturers and broadcasters.

The other side of the coin is that 1080i/25 and 1080p/25 have the same amount of uncompressed data per second - the approved nomenclature makes that more obvious. I am now finding it easier to always talk in frame rates.

Originally Posted by Graham Hickling

So what's the "proper" usage of Psf? 1080psf/30?

The three most common forms are 1080psf/25, 1080psf/24, and 1080psf/30. You can easily and losslessly revert true 25p, 24p, and 30p from them respectively. The first is compatible with the 1080i/25 system, the other two with the 1080i/30 system. And it's for compatibility reasons they are used instead of 1080p/25 etc.

[Graham Hickling]

Thanks. Actually all I meant was how do you type the terminology - i.e. 1080psf/30 it seems.

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by David Heath

I don't dispute that, Ron, I'm just passing on what the standards bodies have decreed. And the nomenclature that is increasingly being used by manufacturers and broadcasters.

Yes I understand. It just happens to be a poor representation of reality and in my career not the first time the standards bodies have missed the point. This camera is a typical instance of the problem. One thinks one is getting 60i but its actually 30P. The issue is one of focusing on time code rather than the temporal motion. IF the time code had been based on exposure rate we would not have this problem !!!!

Ron Evans

[Brian Drysdale]

There may be 30 frames per sec in both cases, but how those frames are constructed is different.

[Dave Blackhurst]

I think that the problem comes with how motion ends up being represented - I may be crazy, but I swear I can see almost a stop motion effect with 30p stuff I've shot - it appears I'm not alone in this, so I feel a bit more vindicated. 60i looks "smoother" and more natural to my eye.

Strangely, when I render out to 24p from 60i, it still looks smooth, when it "should" look worse, I may have to experiment with some of the 30p stuff I've shot and see how it renders out... Now this is really beginning to gnaw at me...

[Erik Phairas]

With a sensor that huge if it doesn't at least outperform the EX camera in low light I have no use for them. Even If this camera doesn't at least it encourages other companies to release something that will.

[David Parks]

Originally Posted by Simon Wyndham

Personally I've had enough of the darling camera phase and I won't be chasing tech any more. I you want me to use a particular camera then hire it and I'll come along and use it for you. Otherwise put up with what I own already.

Amen brother. Too many options! I'm falling back into digging for stories and content. Like Yogi Berra said to a future Hall of Fame 2nd baseman: "Keep it simple stupid." I'm tired of chasing tech too. I mean it seems to me the purpose of these cameras are to sell lenses!

[Ron Evans]

Originally Posted by Brian Drysdale

There may be 30 frames per sec in both cases, but how those frames are constructed is different.

The point is a true 60i camera exposes at a rate of 60 frames a second so the temporal motion is 60 frames a second. Since the 60i camera only records fields every 1/60 second, and two fields make a frame the standard says its 30 frames a second !!!! 60i is smoother, its taking twice as many shots of the scene as 30P. If the exposure is the same then the 30P video will judder in comparison to the 60i camera, a bit less than 24P, but still a judder.
This camera completely identifies the weakness in the standard. 30P in 60i and 60i are called the same but they are very different.

Ron Evans

[David Heath]

Originally Posted by Ron Evans

This camera is a typical instance of the problem. One thinks one is getting 60i but its actually 30P.

I agree with the second sentence, but surely that's not a problem with the camera, but with the old style terminology? What the camera is actually giving out is a perfectly valid 1080psf/30, and if it's referred to as such, rather than as something like "30p in 60i", the confusion should go away.

To try and move on, if we can all agree it's 1080psf/30, I'd like to return to the question I put in post 76 - why ONLY 30psf, why not 1080i/30 AS WELL? It's a consumer camera, and traditionally 1080i/25(30) has been Sonys primary mode in these?

As I said before, "It's only a theory, but MAYBE, just maybe, it could be because they can read out the entire chip prior to downconversion at 25Hz, but not at 50Hz? Doing that, rather than the arrangement used in most current DSLRs would be a huge step forward since it should take away many of the aliasing problems and give far better sensitiivity. Just a thought."

[Kristian Roque]

Originally Posted by Jay West

For Kristian: It is really hard trying to decide between a camera you think is suitable and one a few months down the road that might (or might not) be be suitable for much less money. This camera won't even be shipping for at least a month and a half, and we do not know anything about lens kits at this point.

But, if you can wait two or three weeks, we'll probably be getting more details about what the other lenses do and what comes stock and what does not. We'll have a much better idea of how things actually work. Somebody will get hands on with this camera. You will get a better idea whether the less-expensive VG10 will be as suitable for the kinds of things you do as the FX1000 you are looking at.

Thanks so very much for that response. As much as I would LOVE to wait for this camera. It is rather hard to know what this camera can do without seeing it first. As Robert mentioned... HDV is a thing of yesterday and to be honest with HDV shooting at 1440x1080, that makes it a bit inferior to shooting 1920x1080, even if the VG10 is only 60i. And the FX1000 now shoots 24p. Geez, I dont know... I am so tempted to just go with 2 Canon 7Ds and roll with em and see how they do. The audio sucks on them, I know. But Video looks simply amazing. So with that, I would have to either a Tascam or Zoom recorder, making it more $$$.

[Greg Laves]

Originally Posted by David Heath

The stock lens will give dof comparable to a 1/3" camera wide open,

David, I may have missed something in the discussion along the way but I have been using my Z7 (1/3" chips) with a f1.4 "pro" Fujinon lens which is a faster lens than the stock lens and should give a shallower depth of field. And I have a DSLR which has the same size image sensor as the NEX-VG10 (APS). My DSLR camera came with an 18 - 200 f3.5 - 5.6 lens which is very similar in spec to the stock VG10 lens. And I am sure that that I can achieve a great deal more bokeh with the DSLR and the standard lens than the Z7 can ever hope to achieve with the even better f1.4 lens. The APS sensor is HUGE compared to a 1/3" chip. I thought I saw something that said it is 15x larger. That is a lot of difference And from what I understand, 35mm movie film is approximately the same size as an APS sensor and so is the RED ONE camera.

[Kristian Roque]

For those that have pre ordered this camera. What Memory cards are you using or recommend?

[Monday Isa]

I already have sandisks 16GB class 6 cards from my T2i that I will be using and also a couple of Transcend Class 6 16GB cards as well. Hope this helps.

[Tim Polster]

Greg, I would say the 1/3" chip camera at f1.4 would be roughly equivalent to the new Sony camera at f8 for equal DOF.